Donald Trump and the Coronavirus

[Cow Poke]

No - it was never used as my argument. If anything, I muddied the waters...

This, my friend, is what makes conversation so difficult with you at times. Verbosity is your enemy.

As for the "unified", I'm specifically referring to congressional voting - where it matters. The Democrats seem to be able to rally their troops, including the supposed Independents, and the Republicans are all over the place. That, of course, was in the past, and the Republicans are far more united in that regard than they used to be.

I will concede, however, that the Democrats, of late, seem to be 'cracking up', and are not nearly the somewhat unified party they once were.

[carpedm9587]

This, my friend, is what makes conversation so difficult with you at times. Verbosity is your enemy.

It can be. On the other hand, a five-word parenthetical clearly identified as my own is hardly "verbosity." SO it's also possible you're making much ado about nothing...right?

As for the "unified", I'm specifically referring to congressional voting - where it matters. The Democrats seem to be able to rally their troops, including the supposed Independents, and the Republicans are all over the place. That, of course, was in the past, and the Republicans are far more united in that regard than they used to be.

Again, if you can make this point with some actual information, I'd be happy to concede the point. Right now, all I have is your insistence that it has historically been so, and I don't believe you can make that case.

I will concede, however, that the Democrats, of late, seem to be 'cracking up', and are not nearly the somewhat unified party they once were.

And I don't think they ever were. Until the beginning of Obama's term, I cannot think, offhand, of any issues where the Democrats were voting as a block, save those few issues that were so widely accepted that even Republicans voted for it (e.g., the so-called "Patriot Act").

And we've gone around enough. Isn't it time for you to abandon ship with a hearty, "you're right, Carpe. You're always right..."

[Cow Poke]

It can be. On the other hand, a five-word parenthetical clearly identified as my own is hardly "verbosity." SO it's also possible you're making much ado about nothing...right?



Again, if you can make this point with some actual information, I'd be happy to concede the point. Right now, all I have is your insistence that it has historically been so, and I don't believe you can make that case.



And I don't think they ever were. Until the beginning of Obama's term, I cannot think, offhand, of any issues where the Democrats were voting as a block, save those few issues that were so widely accepted that even Republicans voted for it (e.g., the so-called "Patriot Act").

And we've gone around enough. Isn't it time for you to abandon ship with a hearty, "you're right, Carpe. You're always right..."

I willl happily allow you to suffer under the delusion that you're right.

[Cow Poke]

It can be. On the other hand, a five-word parenthetical clearly identified as my own is hardly "verbosity."

Correct - that was "muddying the waters" - the verbosity came in trying to defend that.

[carpedm9587]

I willl happily allow you to suffer under the delusion that you're right.

Fair enough.


And I will happily permit you to suffer under the delusion that I am deluded!

[carpedm9587]

Correct - that was "muddying the waters" - the verbosity came in trying to defend that.

Umm...


...well....


hmmm...

[Sparko]

Pretty much saying the same thing except in your usual biased way.

With the exception that democrats have vocally told pro-life democrats that they can't be part of the party any longer.

[carpedm9587]

With the exception that democrats have vocally told pro-life democrats that they can't be part of the party any longer.

Some Democrats.

...and MANY Republicans have labeled non-conforming Republicans as "RINOs" and drummed them out of the party. Are you under the illusion that a pro-life Republican would be welcome in the party?

[Cow Poke]

Some Democrats.

...and MANY Republicans have labeled non-conforming Republicans as "RINOs" and drummed them out of the party.

Your best three examples, please.

[carpedm9587]

Your best three examples, please.

• Gary Johnson (Governor)
• Arlen Specter (Senator)
• Lincoln Chafee (Senator)
• Lowell Weicker (Senator)
• Michael Bloomberg (New York City Mayor)
• Jim Jeffords (Senator)
• Charlie Crist (Governor)
• John Anderson (Representative)
• Buddy Roemer (Governor)
• James Comey (FBI Director)
• Justin Amash (State Representative)

And I'm pretty sure I can hear the objection already: each of these people decided, of their own volition, to leave the party. Each of them, however, was also vilified and ostracized before and after their departure. One can only guess how much longer McCain would have lasted.

And you seem to completely forget the "Blue Dog Democrats," which still exist and currently has 25 members. This is a conservative coalition within the Democratic party. Can you point to any liberal coalition within the Republican party? Can you point to ANY Republican that is pro-choice and welcomed in the party? Can you even point to ANY Republican that is actually pro-choice?

And I presume we are still talking about Republicans in positions of political leadership (i.e., elected to office or in a leadership position running the party).

[NorrinRadd]

• Gary Johnson (Governor)
• Arlen Specter (Senator)
• Lincoln Chafee (Senator)
• Lowell Weicker (Senator)
• Michael Bloomberg (New York City Mayor)
• Jim Jeffords (Senator)
• Charlie Crist (Governor)
• John Anderson (Representative)
• Buddy Roemer (Governor)
• James Comey (FBI Director)
• Justin Amash (State Representative)

And I'm pretty sure I can hear the objection already: each of these people decided, of their own volition, to leave the party. Each of them, however, was also vilified and ostracized before and after their departure. One can only guess how much longer McCain would have lasted.

And you seem to completely forget the "Blue Dog Democrats," which still exist and currently has 25 members. This is a conservative coalition within the Democratic party. Can you point to any liberal coalition within the Republican party? Can you point to ANY Republican that is pro-choice and welcomed in the party? Can you even point to ANY Republican that is actually pro-choice?

And I presume we are still talking about Republicans in positions of political leadership (i.e., elected to office or in a leadership position running the party).

AFAIK, Rudy Giuliani and Tom Ridge are both Pro-Choice Republicans, and both are nationally known and politically active.

[carpedm9587]

AFAIK, Rudy Giuliani and Tom Ridge are both Pro-Choice Republicans, and both are nationally known and politically active.

Giuliani's stance on abortion and choice is a little fuzzy, as the linked article concerning his various statements back when he was running for office suggests. And Giuliani, as far as I now, does not hold an elected office or a leadership position in the Republican party: he's Trump's personal attorney. As such, anything he think/feels most on the right will give him a pass on, as they do for Trump. He doesn't fit the profile we've been talking about (i.e., elected official or leadership position in the Republican Party).

As for Tom Ridge, again, the discussion was about current elected officials or leaders of the Republican Party. I'd even be happy to extend it to appointed government positions (e.g., Cabinet positions, for example), but Ridge hasn't held one of those since 2005, AFAICT. He was a senior aide to McCain in 2008. McCain was himself considered a RINO, so it does not really support the argument being made that a RINO gave another RINO a position. All in all, he's not really part of the group we've been talking about. He does, however, appear to be pro-choice. I suspect he would have zero chance of gaining elected office today, or appointment to a significant government position.

I think my point stands: I can find Democrats in elected/appointed/leadership positions across the political spectrum. You will have to look long and hard to find a Republican in such a position that is a liberal. Even the moderates are becoming rare. Any suggestion that Democrats are "single minded" and "follow the herd" or "function as a block" simply fails on the evidence. That accusation is more appropriately leveled at the Republican Party.

[Cow Poke]

• Gary Johnson (Governor)
• Arlen Specter (Senator)
• Lincoln Chafee (Senator)
• Lowell Weicker (Senator)
• Michael Bloomberg (New York City Mayor)
• Jim Jeffords (Senator)
• Charlie Crist (Governor)
• John Anderson (Representative)
• Buddy Roemer (Governor)
• James Comey (FBI Director)
• Justin Amash (State Representative)

And I'm pretty sure I can hear the objection already: each of these people decided, of their own volition, to leave the party.

Which was NOT the claim you made.

Some Democrats.

...and MANY Republicans have labeled non-conforming Republicans as "RINOs" and drummed them out of the party. Are you under the illusion that a pro-life Republican would be welcome in the party?

[NorrinRadd]

Giuliani's stance on abortion and choice is a little fuzzy, as the linked article concerning his various statements back when he was running for office suggests. And Giuliani, as far as I now, does not hold an elected office or a leadership position in the Republican party: he's Trump's personal attorney. As such, anything he think/feels most on the right will give him a pass on, as they do for Trump. He doesn't fit the profile we've been talking about (i.e., elected official or leadership position in the Republican Party).

As for Tom Ridge, again, the discussion was about current elected officials or leaders of the Republican Party. I'd even be happy to extend it to appointed government positions (e.g., Cabinet positions, for example), but Ridge hasn't held one of those since 2005, AFAICT. He was a senior aide to McCain in 2008. McCain was himself considered a RINO, so it does not really support the argument being made that a RINO gave another RINO a position. All in all, he's not really part of the group we've been talking about. He does, however, appear to be pro-choice. I suspect he would have zero chance of gaining elected office today, or appointment to a significant government position.

I think my point stands: I can find Democrats in elected/appointed/leadership positions across the political spectrum. You will have to look long and hard to find a Republican in such a position that is a liberal. Even the moderates are becoming rare. Any suggestion that Democrats are "single minded" and "follow the herd" or "function as a block" simply fails on the evidence. That accusation is more appropriately leveled at the Republican Party.

Ok.

FWIW, I'm not particularly a "big tent" kinda guy. I'd never vote for a Pro-Choice anything, and would generally not vote for a non-RWNJ, so for me, they might as well not be in the party.

[oxmixmudd]

• Gary Johnson (Governor)
• Arlen Specter (Senator)
• Lincoln Chafee (Senator)
• Lowell Weicker (Senator)
• Michael Bloomberg (New York City Mayor)
• Jim Jeffords (Senator)
• Charlie Crist (Governor)
• John Anderson (Representative)
• Buddy Roemer (Governor)
• James Comey (FBI Director)
• Justin Amash (State Representative)

And I'm pretty sure I can hear the objection already: each of these people decided, of their own volition, to leave the party. Each of them, however, was also vilified and ostracized before and after their departure. One can only guess how much longer McCain would have lasted.

And you seem to completely forget the "Blue Dog Democrats," which still exist and currently has 25 members. This is a conservative coalition within the Democratic party. Can you point to any liberal coalition within the Republican party? Can you point to ANY Republican that is pro-choice and welcomed in the party? Can you even point to ANY Republican that is actually pro-choice?

And I presume we are still talking about Republicans in positions of political leadership (i.e., elected to office or in a leadership position running the party).

Dont forget Jeff Flake.