Coronavirus Outbreak...

[Mountain Man]

As the left has become increasingly anti-firearm the right has become increasingly vocal and in your face.

I wonder if a time is coming when liberals are going to bitterly regret not fighting for the right to keep and bear arms?

[seer]

As the deaths due to gun violence has climbed, the call for tighter gun controls has also increased. Although I used to be a moderate on this issue, I have now become far left - mostly thanks to you and those like you here and on other fora. I now believe the 2nd Amendment should be repealed and replaced with an amendment that recognizes gun ownership as a responsibility to be earned rather than a right to be protected. And I believe guns should be forcefully taken (if necessary) from those who will not comply with reasonable gun controls, among which I include universal background checks, required gun safes (or other gun locking mechanism), training/certification for use, a limitation on magazine capacity, and a national gun registration database.

What other right needs to be "earned?" And the fact that people like you want to repeal the the 2nd Amendment just proves that those on my side have are on the right track. And firearm deaths were higher in the 70s, 80s and 90s so why are you getting your panties in a bunch now? https://www.statista.com/statistics/...us-since-1970/

We are permitting an army of fanatics to arm themselves in our midst. Something needs to be done about it. Every protesters that shows up to a "peaceful protest" armed further demonstrates that need.

Yes, like the Minutemen showing up in Concord...

[Mountain Man]

What other right needs to be "earned?"

The other thing liberals always get wrong is that 2nd Amendment does not explicitly protect one's right to keep and carry guns but any sort of implement of self-defense. If the 2nd Amendment were ever repealed then anything you might use to defend yourself could be declared illegal.

[Sparko]

What other right needs to be "earned?" And the fact that people like you want to repeal the the 2nd Amendment just proves that those on my side have are on the right track. And firearm deaths were higher in the 70s, 80s and 90s so why are you getting your panties in a bunch now? https://www.statista.com/statistics/...us-since-1970/



Yes, like the Minutemen showing up in Concord...

Repealing an amendment recognizing a natural right doesn't remove that right. The 2nd doesn't give us the right to have a gun, it only recognizes that we have it already. The right to defend oneself, one's family and one's community is a fundamental right of every human being.

[carpedm9587]

What other right needs to be "earned?"

None. Owning a gun is not a right.

And the fact that people like you want to repeal the the 2nd Amendment just proves that those on my side have are on the right track. And firearm deaths were higher in the 70s, 80s and 90s so why are you getting your panties in a bunch now? https://www.statista.com/statistics/...us-since-1970/

I have always been concerned about the level of gun violence in our country. Further, gun ownership cannot be shown to be instrumental in the change you cite. You have correlation without causation. In the same intervening period, there have been significant changes in law enforcement, rehabilitation efforts, social norms, and a wide variety of factors impacting society as a whole.

Yes, like the Minutemen showing up in Concord...

I promise not to object to folks wielding flint-locks in the absence of a national army to repel a foreign power.


ETA: I'm not going to engage in this discussion further, for two reasons: 1) This thread is not devoted to this subject and 2) minds here are firmly closed to any suggestion that we need to do something about out-of-control guns in this country, so this is not the venue in which to have a reasoned discussion. I'll leave you all to it.

[oxmixmudd]

As the deaths due to gun violence has climbed, the call for tighter gun controls has also increased. Although I used to be a moderate on this issue, I have now become far left - mostly thanks to you and those like you here and on other fora. I now believe the 2nd Amendment should be repealed and replaced with an amendment that recognizes gun ownership as a responsibility to be earned rather than a right to be protected. And I believe guns should be forcefully taken (if necessary) from those who will not comply with reasonable gun controls, among which I include universal background checks, required gun safes (or other gun locking mechanism), training/certification for use, a limitation on magazine capacity, and a national gun registration database.

We are permitting an army of fanatics to arm themselves in our midst. Something needs to be done about it. Every protesters that shows up to a "peaceful protest" armed further demonstrates that need.

I'm not quite as far left as you on this, but I do favor some of the more common sense suggestions that are routinely shot down by people that would prefer to risk facing a madman with an AK47 over the risk they might be identified as person not deserving gun ownership. I also believe that we are way past the usefulness of the 2nd amendment as it is dealt with today. The risks of crazies and criminals with guns far outweighs the benefit of a population armed with rifles and pistols in a modern war of the scale required to pose a serious threat to the US mainland.

[Mountain Man]

The risks of crazies and criminals with guns far outweighs the benefit of a population armed with rifles and pistols in a modern war of the scale required to pose a serious threat to the US mainland.

Gun laws only stop law abiding citizens from being able to arm themselves. The "crazies and criminals" will continue to pack heat regardless of what the law says. It's like the idiotic "Gun Free Zones". Mass shootings don't happen at the local gun club or firing range, they happen where the "crazies and criminals" know they'll find soft targets.

[rogue06]

What other right needs to be "earned?" And the fact that people like you want to repeal the the 2nd Amendment just proves that those on my side have are on the right track. And firearm deaths were higher in the 70s, 80s and 90s so why are you getting your panties in a bunch now? https://www.statista.com/statistics/...us-since-1970/



Yes, like the Minutemen showing up in Concord...

Now that the 2A has been brought up in a conversation about the Chicom coronavirus...


How long will it be before someone suggests that we put up "Coronavirus Free Zone" signs up as a way of combating the disease.

[seer]

None. Owning a gun is not a right.

Of course it is, according to the Supreme Court. Heller specifically had to do with owning and using a pistol. 2nd Amendment was about the right to bear arms - it was not restricted to pocket knives.

I have always been concerned about the level of gun violence in our country. Further, gun ownership cannot be shown to be instrumental in the change you cite. You have correlation without causation. In the same intervening period, there have been significant changes in law enforcement, rehabilitation efforts, social norms, and a wide variety of factors impacting society as a whole.

So? The point is death by firearms were once much higher, and I doubt that you were attacking the 2nd Amendment back then.

I promise not to object to folks wielding flint-locks in the absence of a national army to repel a foreign power.

Flint locks were state of the art in that time. And the 2nd Amendment is not just about repelling a foreign enemy, but about keeping our own government in check. And for self defense.

ETA: I'm not going to engage in this discussion further, for two reasons: 1) This thread is not devoted to this subject and 2) minds here are firmly closed to any suggestion that we need to do something about out-of-control guns in this country, so this is not the venue in which to have a reasoned discussion. I'll leave you all to it.

That hasn't stopped you in the past.

[carpedm9587]

I'm not quite as far left as you on this, but I do favor some of the more common sense suggestions that are routinely shot down by people that would prefer to risk facing a madman with an AK47 over the risk they might be identified as person not deserving gun ownership. I also believe that we are way past the usefulness of the 2nd amendment as it is dealt with today. The risks of crazies and criminals with guns far outweighs the benefit of a population armed with rifles and pistols in a modern war of the scale required to pose a serious threat to the US mainland.

I didn't use to be far left at all. I used to be quite moderate, arguing for universal background checks, red flag laws, a national database, and limitations on magazines as reasonable compromises that would let anyone own guns as they desired while providing means for protecting the populace. It was in a discussion here (and on other sites) when several people suggested that those who own guns would happily use them against their fellow citizens if their "right" was in any way compromised that I became "radicalized" and convinced that we have been allowing an unstable part of our population to arm themselves in our midst.

Part of me wants to encourage that language to continue. Perhaps if more people were pushed from a moderate position to a more extreme position, we might actually finally make progress.

[oxmixmudd]

I didn't use to be far left at all. I used to be quite moderate, arguing for universal background checks, red flag laws, a national database, and limitations on magazines as reasonable compromises that would let anyone own guns as they desired while providing means for protecting the populace.

They guys here call that 'super liberal'

It was in a discussion here (and on other sites) when several people suggested that those who own guns would happily use them against their fellow citizens if their "right" was in any way compromised that I became "radicalized" and convinced that we have been allowing an unstable part of our population to arm themselves in our midst.

I had some some relatives that were gun-toting white nationalists by today's terminology. I would listen to them talk, and enjoyed some good times shooting with them, but rejected everything they stood for in that arena. I also had a nasty incident when I was a kid where but for the grace of God I'd have likely killed a cousin of mine after finding a gun I thought was not loaded. It was my dad's stern instruction "Always treat a gun like it's loaded" that saved me and him. Since then I've never felt quite the same about guns, though I still enjoy shooting them.

Part of me wants to encourage that language to continue. Perhaps if more people were pushed from a moderate position to a more extreme position, we might actually finally make progress.

I'm not sure what will make US gun aficionado's accept restrictions. Seems the ones that have publicly changed their minds lost someone in a gun accident or to a criminal that obtained the gun through one of the gaping loopholes in our gun laws.

[carpedm9587]

They guys here call that 'super liberal'

I had some some relatives that were gun-toting white nationalists by today's terminology. I would listen to them talk, and enjoyed some good times shooting with them, but rejected everything they stood for in that arena. I also had a nasty incident when I was a kid where but for the grace of God I'd have likely killed a cousin of mine after finding a gun I thought was not loaded. It was my dad's stern instruction "Always treat a gun like it's loaded" that saved me and him. Since then I've never felt quite the same about guns, though I still enjoy shooting them.

I'm not sure what will make US gun aficionado's accept restrictions. Seems the ones that have publicly changed their minds lost someone in a gun accident or to a criminal that obtained the gun through one of the gaping loopholes in our gun laws.

Actually, I used to be a scoutmaster and I enjoyed our shotgun and rifle-shooting merit badges a great deal, and encouraged the boys to try those activities at summer camp. I'm not anti-gun by any stretch of the imagination. But I have become convinced that the right-wing nuts who would rather see our citizens die than accept that all rights come with boundaries are a danger.

Someone recently told me, "insisting on rights without consideration of responsibilities is not freedom - it's adolescence!" I find that sentiment fitting here. And guns in the hands of adolescents is pretty darned frightening.

[little_monkey]

Meanwhile Trump is dismantling the coronavirus task force because, because...I guess Trump has defeated the virus... When's the ticker tape parade??

[JimL]

Meanwhile Trump is dismantling the coronavirus task force because, because...I guess Trump has defeated the virus... When's the ticker tape parade??

Mission defeated. On to the next screw-up.

[carpedm9587]

Mission defeated. On to the next screw-up.

The next screw-up is already underway. Deaths today are back up to 2,129 and have been above 2,000 for the last three days. New cases have been climbing (again) since Monday and are almost back to 30,000. While New York continues to lead, it is now only by a narrow margin and the rate of new infections is climbing in other states. Illinois is second for new cases today followed by NJ, CA, MA, VA, TX, MD, and PA, all of whom are above 1,000 new cases.

So, by all means, let's just open back up. We only have about 77,000 dead, most of whom died in the last six weeks. Maybe if we work really hard, we can make it 150,000 by late June? What an accomplishment - and I'm sure Mr. Trump will be happy to take all the credit. After all, it's no worse than the flu, right?