Coronavirus Outbreak...

[carpedm9587]

No - there is indeed a need for concern. This isn't "it's good", nor is it necessarily "it's bad".

IF there is already an invasion of the virus into the prison, then letting them loose sends the virus into the community. They are in prison, so they've demonstrated they are willing to break the law. Why do you then suppose they will observe "stay in place" restrictions? So they are likely carriers of the virus, and they are likely not to follow the stay at home orders. Non violent offenders often means drug use - but that means risky practices in terms of disease, except perhaps smoking a certain weed. They are therefore on average a greater risk to the general public than others both in terms of the potential to commit crime, and in terms of the potential to infect others with disease.

OTOH, if they are confined to the prison and there is a COVID outbreak, then they are subject to significantly increased risk of infection, and the 1 or 2% mortality that goes with it. So by holding them in prison we are greatly increasing their risk wrt COVID-19. And the question is does their crime, whatever it is, warrant subjecting them to that increased risk.

I tend to come down on the side of you protect the law abiding public before those that have broken the law and found themselves in prison. It could be that they are putting ankle monitors on all of them with very strictly enforced guidelines that if broken will land them back in jail. Hopefully they are doing something like that. And perhaps they are there because they failed to pay their taxes, which overall doesn't really mean they are a risk to the public wrt the factors I'm mentioned. But in general there is a risk to the general population in letting them out without some sort of fairly rigorous monitoring of their activities. So it's nothing to just shrug off, even if ultimately it's the right thing to do.

I might agree, if it were not for the fact that a massive number of our incarcerated citizens are incarcerated for three reasons: a) they committed some minor infraction - a great deal of it having to do with the possession of pot, they are African American, and they lack the money for our legal system. Hopefully, the powers that be sought fit to sort out the serious offenders from this kind of minor stuff that is putting a ridiculous and unnecessary strain on our penal system. The low number of infections the sheriff cites gives me some reason to hope that the vast majority of those released were not infected. Hopefully they at least took the precaution of checking temperatures, but that is not disclosed. As for the risk of them not self-quarantining, I have to say I am not impressed with the degree to which most people are doing that. My wife and I have been out three times since this began, each time using masks, practicing proper social distancing, and with a bottle of hand sanitizer at the ready. The number of people we see out and about is depressing. I have a hard time believing this population is a risk significantly beyond that posed by the rest of my less enlightened fellow citizens.

ETA: When it comes to our penal system, I have little patience for the gross injustices it represents, and the harm that it has done to at least the last two generations of our young people. Privatizing prisons was one of the worst things this country ever did - and the fact that we incarcerate the highest percentage of our citizens is mind-boggling. At 737 of every 100,000 citizens, and jails at 107% occupancy, the only other country that even comes close is Russia. After that, rates drop to less than 1/2 of ours, and by the time you get to the 8th most penal country the rate is less than 1/4 ours. Something is badly out of joint.

[carpedm9587]

Well, it's official. We now have more confirmed infections than the next four countries combined. We have more deaths than any other country. We have 4.5% of the world's population and 30.7% of the infections, and that percentage is slowly climbing. We have 20.6% of the deaths, and that percentage is also slightly rising. Today we saw the highest number of deaths yet, at 2,254. NYC is holding fairly steady in the 700s, but the counts are increasing in other areas.

The one piece of good news I can see is that new infections have dropped five days in a row, from 34.3K on Friday to 24.2K (so far) today. Hopefully the predictions will be right and the deaths will begin to follow suit in the coming days. For those tracking, we have lost more people in the last 10 days than we lose in an entire mild flu season. Within the next 5-10 days we will likely have lost as many people in the last month as the entire average flu season - and that's WITH all the efforts at mitigation.

[seanD]

I read the article. First, the article is on Conservative Tree House and the reporter who apparently interviewed the Sheriff is a Fox News reporter, so your "skewed reporting" radar should be on full alert. The sheriff did nothing more than express concern about a possible spike in crimes. I'm sure the choice was not an easy one. Keep them in jail and he almost certainly dooms them to contracting an infectious disease with all of the accompanying costs, complexity, deaths, and reaction from those on the left about inhumane conditions. Release them and he is taking a chance on some of them committing crimes (pretty much inevitable that at least one of the 4K+ will do that) and the accompanying outrage from the right. I wouldn't want his job. IMO, he made the best call he could, erring on the side of compassion with a side of trust.

As for the comparison, I explained it and it makes perfect sense: both situations involve people in close proximity where viruses can quickly spread. No other parallel was implied.

As my brother would say, "Chilax, dude. All will be well, all will be well, and all manner of things will be well."

"Erring on the side of compassion with a side of trust." Man, you are a piece of work. I'm guessing you're either one of those snooty ivory tower intellectuals that hardly ever intermingles with common folk and has never ever seen an urban environment, let alone experienced one, or you're just putting on a facade by pretending you're coy about the real world. And you don't know why he released them, because the article doesn't specify that in detail, so don't pretend like you do. For all we know, he released them because he saw a potential virus outbreak disaster on his hands and he didn't want to get the blame. Let the public deal with it instead. That's more than likely why he did it, but it's still speculation either way.

[carpedm9587]

"Erring on the side of compassion with a side of trust." Man, you are a piece of work. I'm guessing you're either one of those snooty ivory tower intellectuals that hardly ever intermingles with common folk and has never ever seen an urban environment, let alone experienced one, or you're just putting on a facade by pretending you're coy about the real world. And you don't know why he released them, because the article doesn't specify that in detail, so don't pretend like you do. For all we know, he released them because he saw a potential virus outbreak disaster on his hands and he didn't want to get the blame. Let the public deal with it instead. That's more than likely why he did it, but it's still speculation either way.

Actually, I have lived in Philadelphia, New Orleans, and Boston. I have worked with prisoners as well as helped with support programs for the poor (e.g., food shelves, youth centers, etc.).

As for the article, if you had dug a bit, you would have found that the CTH article was a brief summary of this article from Fox.. The Sheriff is pretty clear about the decision he faced and the reason for his choice: to avoid the spread of the coronavirus within his jail. My outline of the choices facing him were pretty basic and based on a great deal of history. Many on the right are prone to taking single instances of X and blasting it out as if it's the norm. They've done it with immigrants, inmates, and a whole host of topics. The left is just as guilty of taking a single instance of "X dying under unfair conditions" and blasting it as if it is the norm. I don't envy the Sheriff his choice.

You will also note that at no point did I say, "this is what the sheriff thought." I simply pointed out the factors he was facing.

And you can feel free to hold me to that...

BTW - I would love to know the etymology of "piece of work." I've always wondered.

[seanD]

Actually, I have lived in Philadelphia, New Orleans, and Boston. I have worked with prisoners as well as helped with support programs for the poor (e.g., food shelves, youth centers, etc.).

As for the article, if you had dug a bit, you would have found that the CTH article was a brief summary of this article from Fox.. The Sheriff is pretty clear about the decision he faced and the reason for his choice: to avoid the spread of the coronavirus within his jail. My outline of the choices facing him were pretty basic and based on a great deal of history. Many on the right are prone to taking single instances of X and blasting it out as if it's the norm. They've done it with immigrants, inmates, and a whole host of topics. The left is just as guilty of taking a single instance of "X dying under unfair conditions" and blasting it as if it is the norm. I don't envy the Sheriff his choice.

You will also note that at no point did I say, "this is what the sheriff thought." I simply pointed out the factors he was facing. And you can feel free to hold me to that...

It's not a left/right issue, and I don't see why you're so obsessed with that angle (since that's like the second time you brought it up). The right typically sides with law enforcement, so it has nothing to do with left or right politics. You're just in a bubble and you see things how you want to see them.

[lilpixieofterror]

Well, it's official. We now have more confirmed infections than the next four countries combined. We have more deaths than any other country. We have 4.5% of the world's population and 30.7% of the infections, and that percentage is slowly climbing. We have 20.6% of the deaths, and that percentage is also slightly rising. Today we saw the highest number of deaths yet, at 2,254. NYC is holding fairly steady in the 700s, but the counts are increasing in other areas.

The one piece of good news I can see is that new infections have dropped five days in a row, from 34.3K on Friday to 24.2K (so far) today. Hopefully the predictions will be right and the deaths will begin to follow suit in the coming days. For those tracking, we have lost more people in the last 10 days than we lose in an entire mild flu season. Within the next 5-10 days we will likely have lost as many people in the last month as the entire average flu season - and that's WITH all the efforts at mitigation.

[lilpixieofterror]

Due to a combination of extreme political bias and mortifyingly poor understanding of mathematics and science, I wonder if it is even possible for many here to even understand what you have just pointed out. I say that because the only objective means to deal with many of these issues is knowledge and a commitment to truth. Yet they seems on so many levels to be that last two things that are ever brought to the table in these discussions.

I love the smell of rank hypocrisy, in the evening. Keep it classy, Jim.

[Mountain Man]

Well, it's official. We now have more confirmed infections than the next four countries combined. We have more deaths than any other country. We have 4.5% of the world's population and 30.7% of the infections, and that percentage is slowly climbing. We have 20.6% of the deaths, and that percentage is also slightly rising. Today we saw the highest number of deaths yet, at 2,254. NYC is holding fairly steady in the 700s, but the counts are increasing in other areas.

Still worth mentioning that New York and New Jersey account for 50% of those numbers. Cut them out of the equation, and the US looks pretty good overall.

[lilpixieofterror]

Still worth mentioning that New York and New Jersey account for 50% of those numbers. Cut them out of the equation, and the US looks pretty good overall.

[shunyadragon]

I love the smell of rank hypocrisy, in the evening. Keep it classy, Jim.

Change your own underwear and smell will likley go away.

[carpedm9587]

It's not a left/right issue, and I don't see why you're so obsessed with that angle (since that's like the second time you brought it up). The right typically sides with law enforcement, so it has nothing to do with left or right politics. You're just in a bubble and you see things how you want to see them.

Many on the right side with law enforcement. Not all. Many on the left side with the disenfranchised. Not all. I prefer to examine situations as they arise and make the best judgment I can on the basis of the available evidence. Sometimes law enforcement needs to look at itself and make changes. Sometimes the disenfranchised need to look at themselves and make changes.

As for the bubble - if I was in a bubble, Sean, I wouldn't be here.

[carpedm9587]

I don't believe I ignored any of that, AFAICT. We still have 4.5% of the world's population, 30% of its confirmed infections, and 20% of the confirmed deaths. You can try to hand-wave that away if you wish. Pix, but the numbers don't lie. Our response has been muddled and it looks like it will continue to be muddled as Trump tries to claim credit for all successes and divert blame for the failures to others. As previously noted, he has two mantras: "the buck stops there, but you can give credit here" and "If Obama touched it, destroy it." The man-child is still in a hissy over being made fun of at a correspondent's dinner, and he'll do whatever he has to to achieve "getting even." Whether Americans are hurt in the process is of no consequence to him.

[carpedm9587]

Still worth mentioning that New York and New Jersey account for 50% of those numbers. Cut them out of the equation, and the US looks pretty good overall.

I had to chuckle at this. So suddenly NY and NJ are not part of the U.S. because you find their numbers inconvenient?

IIRC, you did the same thing around the 2016 election: Trump would have won the popular vote if it were not for California!


Odd kind of logic, that.


ETA: BTW, one of the reasons that NY is so high on the list is that they have placed a premium on testing from pretty much the beginning. About 25% of the tests done in the U.S. have been done in NY. They are finding more than any other state, in part, because they are testing more than any other state. We have no idea how widespread the virus is in some states because their testing is in the tank.

[lilpixieofterror]

I don't believe I ignored any of that, AFAICT. We still have 4.5% of the world's population, 30% of its confirmed infections, and 20% of the confirmed deaths. You can try to hand-wave that away if you wish. Pix, but the numbers don't lie. Our response has been muddled and it looks like it will continue to be muddled as Trump tries to claim credit for all successes and divert blame for the failures to others. As previously noted, he has two mantras: "the buck stops there, but you can give credit here" and "If Obama touched it, destroy it." The man-child is still in a hissy over being made fun of at a correspondent's dinner, and he'll do whatever he has to to achieve "getting even." Whether Americans are hurt in the process is of no consequence to him.

Which:

1. We are an international hub of business and trade.
2. The largest western nation.
3. Have the virus primarily in those centers of trade.

Why are you ignoring these key details? Because you really want to blame Trump for it all?

[lilpixieofterror]

I had to chuckle at this. So suddenly NY and NJ are not part of the U.S. because you find their numbers inconvenient?

IIRC, you did the same thing around the 2016 election: Trump would have won the popular vote if it were not for California!


Odd kind of logic, that.