Confederate flags again

[Sparko]

You cant rewrite history. The southern Baptist church exists because they believed slavery was acceptable.

That was "a few years ago?" Really?

[Sparko]

The Dukes of Hazzard was a product of its time.

Exactly my point. Confederate flags and such were not considered racist back then. duh.

The show is a product of Lost Cause romanticism, like Gone with the Wind, Song of the South, or Birth of a Nation. And it was nothing like In the Heat of the Night, which was a drama, not a cartoon type entertainment.

You are trying to impose today's values on a time where they didn't apply. This was my whole argument, that back then the confederate flag wasn't considered a symbol of slavery or racism.

What do you think if they tried to show something like the DoH today? The liberals would scream bloody murder. Yet back in the 1970s-80s nobody was offended or thought the confederate flag was racist or promoted slavery. That is a modern invention.

[oxmixmudd]

That was "a few years ago?" Really?

Sparko, I lived in and through any 'recent' time. The only places I ever lived where there were people around me that were comfortable displaying the Confederate flag were racists through and through. I have never met a person that admired or looked up to the confederate flag that was not also racist. I have met people that looked up to the confederate flag that didnt consider themselves racist, despite comments about 'blacks' that showed they were.

[oxmixmudd]

That was "a few years ago?" Really?

No but places like Bob Jones, liberty university and the like
and the large numbers of southern churches supporting them have had racist policies 'recenty'. And in the 50's, 60's and 70's, it was not uncommon for churches to be fully segregated with many congregations very uncomfortable with black attendees. The southern racist culture was very tightly coupled into its Bible belt church culture.

By the 80's that began to move out of the cities and was left more a legacy of smaller, rural churches, or more conservative churches with strong links to people like Jerry Falwell or the even more explicitly racist Bob Jones.


https://thepylonblog.wordpress.com/2...-in-the-1980s/

[shunyadragon]

Slavery was only part of the reasons the states wanted to secede JimL. Like I said, an oversimplification. And you ignored the rest of my post because you know I was right.

It was the stated reason the President Jefferson and the governors of most of the states. If You wish I can cite them if you do not want to look them up yourself.

. . . besides the Battle Blag represents secession and treason against the United States.

I edit this post to include this.

[simplicio]

Exactly my point. Confederate flags and such were not considered racist back then. duh.



You are trying to impose today's values on a time where they didn't apply. This was my whole argument, that back then the confederate flag wasn't considered a symbol of slavery or racism.

What do you think if they tried to show something like the DoH today? The liberals would scream bloody murder. Yet back in the 1970s-80s nobody was offended or thought the confederate flag was racist or promoted slavery. That is a modern invention.

The Confederate flags were not considered racist back then, except by "negro lovers" and black Americans.

Birth lf a Nation and Song of the Southwere not recognized as racist either. The Dukes was a light hearted farce, avoiding any social commentary.

Imagine carrying in the flag into a church with mostly black congregation, whether 1980 or today.

[simplicio]

It was the stated reason the President Jefferson and the governors of most of the states. If You wish I can cite them if you do not want to look them up yourself.

. . . besides the Battle Blag represents secession and treason against the United States.

I edit this post to include this.

Wow. The servitude of the African race is mutually beneficial to both races and authorized and justified by our creator; destruction of the existing relations would bring about desolation and calamity.

That quote shows the importance of bigotry extant. How quickly would such deeply held views dissipate, fade away?

[Sparko]

It was the stated reason the President Jefferson and the governors of most of the states. If You wish I can cite them if you do not want to look them up yourself.

. . . besides the Battle Blag represents secession and treason against the United States.

I edit this post to include this.

[Elephant hurl deleted for space]

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/...esides-slavery

[Sparko]

The Confederate flags were not considered racist back then, except by "negro lovers" and black Americans.

Birth lf a Nation and Song of the Southwere not recognized as racist either. The Dukes was a light hearted farce, avoiding any social commentary.

Imagine carrying in the flag into a church with mostly black congregation, whether 1980 or today.

You are imposing your values today on a time where they were different. You just admitted it in your last post.

If you tried to have the show Dukes of Hazzard produced today, it would be stopped immediately and called racist trash, even if it was a "light hearted farce" - Do you think that people accept what they think is racism if it is just a comedy? No. Just because such things as the Dukes of Hazzard and Song of the South were enjoyed without people thinking they were racist doesn't MAKE everyone back then racist.

What has happened is that we have become way more sensitized to racism because of liberal agendas such as Intersectionality, which calls out differences in people and ranks their "victimhood" based on such things as sex and race. Now every little thing is examined to see if it is "racist" or not and it usually is determined to be so. Because it helps the liberals denounce everyone who doesn't agree with them.

If anything, liberals have become more racist/sexist in recent years, but against whites and males.

[oxmixmudd]

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/...esides-slavery

While from a historical perspective it is always good to know the ancillary issues surrounding an event, but there is one primary issue that drove the civil war, and tin my experience it is only a subset of people raised in the south that consider any of those ancillary issues as having anything close to an equal merit when discussing why we had the civil war.

There is a certain save face aspect to that. The descendants of those that fought to keep slaves need a respectable reason for the people they loved to gave died on a battlefield, and the south as a whole needs to feel some sense of pride over their legacy.

But the civil war was about slavery. And because the north won, the people of african descent in this country are no longer slaves.

When would that freedom have come w/o the civil war or had the south won is a good follow up. But I doubt it would have endured much longer regardless.

[simplicio]

You are imposing your values today on a time where they were different. You just admitted it in your last post.

If you tried to have the show Dukes of Hazzard produced today, it would be stopped immediately and called racist trash, even if it was a "light hearted farce" - Do you think that people accept what they think is racism if it is just a comedy? No. Just because such things as the Dukes of Hazzard and Song of the South were enjoyed without people thinking they were racist doesn't MAKE everyone back then racist.

What has happened is that we have become way more sensitized to racism because of liberal agendas such as Intersectionality, which calls out differences in people and ranks their "victimhood" based on such things as sex and race. Now every little thing is examined to see if it is "racist" or not and it usually is determined to be so. Because it helps the liberals denounce everyone who doesn't agree with them.

If anything, liberals have become more racist/sexist in recent years, but against whites and males.

So, don't you believe in the timelessness of Christian morality?

If an idea is racist, then it is racist at various times throughout history. I also wonder if you are applying the error if many today, seeing the calling out of racism and racist ideas as condemning everything the individual stood for. This attitude is behind the condemnations of men like Jefferson.

I disagree. The acceptance of racism and racist ideas does make one a racist, even if they were otherwise exemplary people. So in the case of Birth of a Nation, if one accepts the ideas of black Americans as lazy sexual predator and the Klan as virtuous heroes establishing order and tranquility through the judicious use of terror, then that person is racist. If one accepts the myth of the black man content and happy in a servile position in society, then one is a racist who has a distorted human anthropology, an anthropology at odds with any Christian anthropology.

It is possible to recognize racism in the past as existing among people without condemning all that those persons stood for. So yes, racism was largely predominate in past generations, even among the founding fathers, even found in Abraham Lincoln. But even with those flaws, Jefferson and Lincoln are heroes, worthy of honor and recognition.

Would you carry the Confederate flag into a black church and expect the congregants to accept the "history not hate" argument?

[simplicio]

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/...esides-slavery

Does recognizing that there were other factors somehow negate that slavery was seen as inseparable from the very purpose for the founding of the Confederate States of America?

We scour the writings of the founding fathers to discover which ideas they find important to them, ideas that the generation saw as essential characteristics to the nation. When we look at the writings of the founders of the CSA, we see racism and slavery as an essential characteristic of their view of liberty. And we see that they saw it as a good.

[Sparko]

So, don't you believe in the timelessness of Christian morality?

If an idea is racist, then it is racist at various times throughout history. I also wonder if you are applying the error if many today, seeing the calling out of racism and racist ideas as condemning everything the individual stood for. This attitude is behind the condemnations of men like Jefferson.

We are talking about the confederate flag being a racist symbol. Not morality.

Racism is bad. But what we call racism today is not necessarily what they called racism 40 years ago, or even actually racist today. Today the term is used as an attack on anyone the left doesn't like. Like "deplorable" or "nazi"

I disagree. The acceptance of racism and racist ideas does make one a racist, even if they were otherwise exemplary people.

You are begging the question by assuming your values are the only valid one and those of 40 years ago are not. And we aren't even talking about actual racism or racist actions, but what symbols people thought of as racist and whether they really are. Heck a year from now some symbol you use today could be declared racist. Suppose you wear Nike shoes and 10 years from now they claim that the Nike swoop logo is racist because some white nationalists use the symbol. Does that make it actually racist? Does that make YOU racist now?

Would you carry the Confederate flag into a black church and expect the congregants to accept the "history not hate" argument?

You mean like this guy?



http://www.theamericanmirror.com/bla...y-in-churches/

https://wpde.com/news/videos/socaste...rican-activist

[Sparko]

Does recognizing that there were other factors somehow negate that slavery was seen as inseparable from the very purpose for the founding of the Confederate States of America?

We scour the writings of the founding fathers to discover which ideas they find important to them, ideas that the generation saw as essential characteristics to the nation. When we look at the writings of the founders of the CSA, we see racism and slavery as an essential characteristic of their view of liberty. And we see that they saw it as a good.

I was arguing with JimL who said slavery was the ONLY reason. I showed him he was wrong.

[shunyadragon]

We are talking about the confederate flag being a racist symbol. Not morality.

Racism is bad. But what we call racism today is not necessarily what they called racism 40 years ago, or even actually racist today. Today the term is used as an attack on anyone the left doesn't like. Like "deplorable" or "nazi"


You are begging the question by assuming your values are the only valid one and those of 40 years ago are not. And we aren't even talking about actual racism or racist actions, but what symbols people thought of as racist and whether they really are. Heck a year from now some symbol you use today could be declared racist. Suppose you wear Nike shoes and 10 years from now they claim that the Nike swoop logo is racist because some white nationalists use the symbol. Does that make it actually racist? Does that make YOU racist now?




You mean like this guy?



http://www.theamericanmirror.com/bla...y-in-churches/

https://wpde.com/news/videos/socaste...rican-activist

One in millions does not justify your case.