Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Whistleblower identified
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Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNone of that changes the fact that Sondland's testimony is full of statements like "I presume" and "I came to understand" that any half-way competent attorney would home in on and destroy. I can just picture Jack McCoy (for you Law & Order fans) raising his bushy eyebrows and saying, "We're not here to discuss what you 'presume', Mr. Sondland, we're here to discuss the truth! And isn't it the truth that you were never told to offer a quid pro quo? And isn't the truth that you said in a text message at the time that the President was 'crystal clear' that there was to be no quid pro quo? Isn't that the truth, Mr. Sondland?"My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSondland says quite clearly that the statement announcing continuing investigations was the condition for getting the aid released.
"I presumed that the aid suspension had become linked to the proposed anticorruption statement."
It bears repeating: presumptions are not facts.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostHe said quite clearly that he presumed it. His exact words:
"I presumed that the aid suspension had become linked to the proposed anticorruption statement."
It bears repeating: presumptions are not facts.
His statement explains how his level of certainty changed over time. Earlier in the year, he, hears of the suspension of aid and is confused as to why it has happened. Then later, as you say, he presumes, based on what he is hearing from Trump's people, that the reason for the aid suspension is the desire for some sort of anti-corruption statement to be issued by someone of importance in Ukraine. As Ambassador to to EU he feels certain enough about this presumption to pass it on to a senior adviser to the Ukrainian President. Then, a month later he learns from Trump's people that there are specific requirements about who give the statement before aid will be released.
Also worth noting that there are multiple other witnesses. The impeachment investigation doesn't hang on this Trump mega-donor's testimony. He is, however, a perfect example of Trump appointing the swamp... he donated $1 million to Trump's campaign and got gifted with the position of Ambassador to the EU. Nice for some.Last edited by Starlight; 11-09-2019, 10:34 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNone of that changes the fact that Sondland's testimony is full of statements like "I presume" and "I came to understand" that any half-way competent attorney would home in on and destroy. I can just picture Jack McCoy (for you Law & Order fans) raising his bushy eyebrows and saying, "We're not here to discuss what you 'presume', Mr. Sondland, we're here to discuss the truth! And isn't it the truth that you were never told to offer a quid pro quo? And isn't the truth that you said in a text message at the time that the President was 'crystal clear' that there was to be no quid pro quo? Isn't that the truth, Mr. Sondland?"
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostHe said quite clearly that he presumed it. His exact words:
"I presumed that the aid suspension had become linked to the proposed anticorruption statement."
It bears repeating: presumptions are not facts.
Now this is referring to a meeting BEFORE the July 25 call.
That is what he told them - in a meeting well AFTER the July 25th call. That is quid pro quo. This was an ongoing situation that covered several months where Trump wanted that public commitment and was continually pushing for it and trying to manipulate Zelensky into giving it. Other testimony describes construction of a statement for Zelensky to read announcing said curruption investigations.
From these and other testimomies we know that a key element, if not THE key element, was the investigation of the Bidens, but also the strongly rebuffed conspiracy theory (re Fiona Hill's testimony) that somehow Ukraine was involved in trying to interfere with the 2016 election in favor of Hillary Clinton. Fiona Hill's testimony strongly rebukes those senators wasting time on this foolish contention telling them such baseless theories play into the hand of Russian intentions to detract from efforts to counteract and rebuff their own efforts to influence our elections.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 11-09-2019, 11:20 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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NPR has quite a good article in which they have the whole whistleblower complaint and have highlighted each part of it that has been confirmed by witness testimony with an explanation of what the witness said that was relevant.
Essentially everything the whistleblower reported that they'd heard had happened, has now been confirmed to congressional committees by the people who witnessed it happening.
It makes it easy to see why Schiff is right to say that the identity of the whistleblower is not relevant and that the whistleblower will not need to testify, as the whistleblower themselves was not a first-hand witness of most of these events, merely an accurate reporter of what others had told him happened."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Watermelon View PostVindman has testified that the transcript is missing some key points, specifically the parts where they talk about Biden and Burisma. Vindman also explained that the transcript was compiled by note takers, as the call was not recorded, of which he was one.
So its alleged that the transcript is neither verbatim or complete. Whether this is true or made up would be something that a trial would determine.
Teal has said that a stenographer makes an actual literal verbatim transcript, but I've not heard that anywhere else. (But I also don't do nearly as much research as she does.)
However, this is only one component to the claim. That Trump demanded the investigation for aid didn't start and end with this phone call and the whistleblowers report details dates and events that have been corroborated by multiple witness testimonies.
The main fact, not contested and central to this claim, is that the aid was held up under instructions from Trump who can't seem to remember why.
Any prosecutor would tell you that this is more than enough to warrant an investigation. 'Smoking gun' type of evidence is pretty rare, most crimes are established by linking one piece of circumstantial evidence to another, similar to how scientific experiments link together to support scientific theories, until theres only one reasonable explanation to account for everything. Before complaining about lack of evidence to convict remember that the investigation is the process to gather the evidence!Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostFrom Leona Hills testimony ... repeatedly across the day ... concerning what she heard Sondland say:
Who's next? The mailman who overheard him talking to his wife?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSondland changed his testimony only after hearing the contradictory testimony of honorable witnesses.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHow Ironic. Guess you haven't seen the evidence coming from the testimony of those involved and who knew what was going on.
What is it with the TDS crowd that they now think that the former somehow is the latter?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostOh goody. More hearsay. The most credible form of evidence there is.
Who's next? The mailman who overheard him talking to his wife?
So we know this was the message from Sondland to the Ukraine.
So are you maintaining Sondland was conveying that message on his own without the president's approval?My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThat is not hearsay, depending on how it is used. That is eyewitness testimoney as to what another person said. So it shows that Sondland was conveying the message to the Ukrainians that they would not get the call unless they promised investigations.
So we know this was the message from Sondland to the Ukraine.
So are you maintaining Sondland was conveying that message on his own without the president's approval?
If I tell you about a conversation I heard that is hearsayLast edited by rogue06; 11-10-2019, 08:06 AM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThat is not hearsay, depending on how it is used. That is eyewitness testimoney as to what another person said. So it shows that Sondland was conveying the message to the Ukrainians that they would not get the call unless they promised investigations.
So we know this was the message from Sondland to the Ukraine.
So are you maintaining Sondland was conveying that message on his own without the president's approval?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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