Originally posted by Sam
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The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostYou're just going round in circles, Jim.
Trump's history of telling nothing but lies justifies your consistent cynicism and interpretation of what he says in a poor light. When he's misquoted or misrepresented (it does happen) you can't see it, because you expect Trump to always lie, be egomaniacal etc. Why do you expect that? Because that's what Trump does. How do you know that's what he does? Because he always lies, boasts, exaggerates, etc etc.
You're probably at least partially correct that some people who support Trump get sucked into his rhetoric. How come you can't consider the idea that many of those who oppose Trump are sucked into anti-Trump rhetoric? That he's not as good as his supporters think, and not as bad as his political and media opponents would have us believe?
Here's an example from the Independent (British newspaper)
Headline on front page: "Trump rages at Fox News after poll shows majority want him impeached"
Note the loaded term: "rages"
Before we've read the story, we're already being given the impression that Trump is angry, out of control, and very upset with the poll result. If we don't read the story, that's the impression we're likely to take away. Trump is out of control angry, presumably because he's threatened by the idea of impeachment.
First line of the story, Trump "... has vented his anger at Fox News..." . Again the idea is that he's angry and expressing it forcefully (it's an intense emotion that has been kept bottled up but now is vented). But note that it's a step down from "Trump rages"
After a line about the poll results, the story continues, saying that Trump "...made his displeasure clear with the network...". Note that this is a fair bit more neutral than "Trump rages". Why? Because the actual data doesn't support the claim.
What did Trump actually say? Nothing. There is no footage of him 'raging' at Fox. No verbal quotes, nothing.
The story is based off a Twitter tweet, which is quoted as: "From the day I announced I was running for President, I have NEVER had a good @FoxNews Poll," and "Whoever their Pollster is, they suck. But @FoxNews is also much different than it used to be in the good old days."
Note that the actual tweet(s) itself isn't posted, so it is possible that context or some wording has been omitted. Note that the claim of 'rage' in the headline is not supported by the quotes given. The whole article could be rewritten with the idea that 'Trump is disappointed that he doesn't poll better on Fox News polling', and be just as supported (more supported, actually) by the facts (two unsourced tweet quotes).
The whole article is hot trash: a clickbait headline designed to give a (false) negative impression of Trump, angry, out of control and under pressure, and then a slow walkback in the article itself. But the first impression made is likely to colour our assessment of Trump. It's media bias and manipulation of readers.
A more complete text for the tweet is:
And he did not stop with these two tweets, he just kept on complaining about it and putting up other polls that look 'better' (but come from less reliable sources).
All in all, I would say 'rages' is accurate.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 10-10-2019, 10:31 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostPart of this is that there's so much "I HATE TRUMP" mentality that the accusations go even beyond the stupid/jackass things he does. If the TrumpHaters simply stuck to what Trump has actually done, they'd have plenty to talk about, and there's a whole lot for which I wouldn't even try to defend Trump. As I've stated numerous times, I wish somebody would take his Twitter account from him, but there's no need to make up stuff.
There's merit to that, certainly, and I agree that sticking to what Trump has actually done gives everybody plenty of reason to oppose him or even view him with contempt. But, there again, we have to define where and how people are making stuff up. Not here in a list, of course, but when it's happening. Then a discussion about the factual merits can be had: ideally, though rarely in practice, the chaff is winnowed from the wheat.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostThere's merit to that, certainly, and I agree that sticking to what Trump has actually done gives everybody plenty of reason to oppose him or even view him with contempt. But, there again, we have to define where and how people are making stuff up. Not here in a list, of course, but when it's happening. Then a discussion about the factual merits can be had: ideally, though rarely in practice, the chaff is winnowed from the wheat.
--SamThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostPart of this is that there's so much "I HATE TRUMP" mentality that the accusations go even beyond the stupid/jackass things he does. If the TrumpHaters simply stuck to what Trump has actually done, they'd have plenty to talk about, and there's a whole lot for which I wouldn't even try to defend Trump. As I've stated numerous times, I wish somebody would take his Twitter account from him, but there's no need to make up stuff."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWell, that's all wonderful, but when you point out an actual false accusation, you're accused by the TrumpHaters of being a "Trumpster" and "supporting Trump at every turn". Hate trumps fact.
We're in the bad times. Understandably so, I'd say, because our democratic institutions and ideals are being challenged like never before in our lifetimes. It's true that we all have to work hard to keep focus on fact and truth. It's also true that it's past time for patriots and citizens and Christians to choose which side they support deliberately and not just passively.
It's a dichotomy that forces conflict.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostWe're in the bad times. Understandably so, I'd say, because our democratic institutions and ideals are being challenged like never before in our lifetimes. It's true that we all have to work hard to keep focus on fact and truth. It's also true that it's past time for patriots and citizens and Christians to choose which side they support deliberately and not just passively.
It's a dichotomy that forces conflict.
--SamThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostWe're in the bad times. Understandably so, I'd say, because our democratic institutions and ideals are being challenged like never before in our lifetimes. It's true that we all have to work hard to keep focus on fact and truth. It's also true that it's past time for patriots and citizens and Christians to choose which side they support deliberately and not just passively.
It's a dichotomy that forces conflict.
--Sam"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIt would be much easier if the Democrats weren't pushing so hard against traditional values, and competing with one another to see who can be the fartherst left.
But we're all never going to agree on what "traditional values" means or which "traditional values" should be retained vs. which should be adapted or left to history. What we hopefully all can agree on are democratic civic values, those that promote democracy domestically and abroad, as well as those that retain our democratic institutions as non-partisan and oriented toward the general welfare of the Republic, rather than bent toward personal or party profit.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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It has been decades since the Democrat party has had to deal with a Republican who actually fights back. They're used to the likes of McCain, Romney, Ryan, and Boehner who were happy to roll over in the name of "compromise" so as to maintain the status quo.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Roy View PostI see no reason to that, nor any reason for you to.
I try to give everyone the same benefit of doubt, at least initially. But if you want to maintain a double standard, I can't stop you.
Here's your tag!
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Sam View PostThis is, for better or worse, a matter of opinion that doesn't reduce well to fact. I happen to disagree and think that Trump, by far, has shown the most hostility to traditional values of any modern president or party.
But we're all never going to agree on what "traditional values" means or which "traditional values" should be retained vs. which should be adapted or left to history. What we hopefully all can agree on are democratic civic values, those that promote democracy domestically and abroad, as well as those that retain our democratic institutions as non-partisan and oriented toward the general welfare of the Republic, rather than bent toward personal or party profit.
--Sam"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostOh, I'm sure if the Democrats ever work up the courage to actually file for impeachment that they'll throw in everything and the kitchen sink no matter how meritless it might be.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostA better scenario would be where you think that Trump has done something for which he's attacked unfairly and I can respond whether I've defended him or jumped in for the attack or simply ignored the noise. Honestly, we've forgotten so many actual Trump scandals (whatever happened with that GSA Trump international decision?) that it's difficult to even remember non-events.
One thing I can recall: the Trump administration's decision to back off from demanding North Korea denuclearize in exchange for talks and relief. While Trump gets taken to task for his change in rhetoric and broken campaign promises (legitimately), nuclearization was a decades-long problem that got dumped into Trump's lap at the beginning of his term -- he wasn't going to stop North Korea from becoming a nuclear power and no US president in the near future is going to make NK give up is nuclear weapons. So Trump gets some unfair heat for his administration's failure to prevent/eradicate NK's nuclear arsenal.
Originally posted by SamBut, no, Trump's not trying the best he can to fulfill the responsibilities and great expectations of the presidency. He has, more than any other president in modern history, turned the executive branch into an extension of his own desires and animus. And that's so evident, I think, with so many examples of wrongdoing and self-serving action, that I just don't think someone can objectively follow American politics and see Trump as more or less on the same level as past presidents, Republican or Democrat. We're just dealing with someone and something very different here.
In any case, the answer to that problem isn't to simply decry partisanship but to show how a given event or issue should break down on objective means. Yes, we all harbor bias -- but holding bias isn't fate. We can, and should, subject those biases to scrutiny and challenge and work to make sure that our opinions stem from justified and warranted beliefs.
--Sam
It might well be true (but Obama and the IRS springs to mind) - but the point is you're conflating your negative opinions of Trump with facts, and that's not objective.
Your last sentence is admirable as an ideal - but just how well do you live up to it? Not as well as you perhaps think.
Edit to add: I should add that when someone consistently and pretty much exclusively weighs in on one side of the political divide, no matter what the issue, that does raise the question of how much he is a partisan rather than an objective analyst.
IOW, don't be the shunyadragon of Civics - 'I'm not an atheist (Democrat fanboi), it's just that all your arguments for God suck (the Democrats are the only ones with real morals and fighting for what's right)'Last edited by MaxVel; 10-11-2019, 09:29 AM....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostWe'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see anything misleading or incorrect in the article or in it's characterization of Trumps response. He expects polls to show what he wants to see, not what actually is, and he's vented a ridiculous accusation on twitter that somehow fix 'isn't being fair'. How is that any different from his response to the inauguration? And good on fox for ignoring him and publishing the findings anyway.
A more complete text for the tweet is:
And he did not stop with these two tweets, he just kept on complaining about it and putting up other polls that look 'better' (but come from less reliable sources).
All in all, I would say 'rages' is accurate.
Jim
Rage: to act or speak with fury; show or feel violent anger; fulminate.
Quote the words from his tweet that were cited in the story that show Trump was 'acting or speaking with fury'
Fury: unrestrained or violent anger, rage, passion, or the like...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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