Originally posted by Leonhard
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Charles View PostAnd:
ETA: Oh and "Error 404-Page NOT Found"
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostWhy are you allowed to apply context, interpretation and exegesis to the Bible, but the Quran has to be interpreted the same way atheists interpret the Bible?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThat is one of the verses abrogated by the forced conversion verses. It is a practice called naskh ("abrogation") where later revelations supersede or nullify earlier once that they contradict. ... -- and nearly all Muslim scholars agree that the Surah Bara'ah (the ninth) was the very last surah in the Qur'an that was revealed (although a few say it was al-Nasr or surah 110)
For the Quran its not at all clear. Ask around and you will get several answers. Most scholars I have found argue that it is indeed al-Nasr which is the last Surah revealed. It is also popular to consider verse three of Al-Ma'ida to be the last revelation, this is the basic outlook of the Sunni muslims which number at 90% of all muslims. The only places I find the argument that the ninth Surah is the last one, are ones made by Christians in criticising Islam.
There's also simple historical problem in that for most of history people just didn't forcefully convert, not even during conquest by muslims. They no more forcefully converted than people did when Christians came to conquer America, or settle colonies in various places (where they did sometimes perform forced baptism - regardless of scriptural merit or not). Eventual homogenization happened, which is not at all mysterious to me.
As a further note, the concept of taqqiya (or idtirar) comes into play far too frequently among Islamic scholars
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAs Sparko correctly pointed out, she is quick to condemn white supremacists, Trump, and Israel but when it comes to the group responsible for nearly all of the worst incidents in the past few decades, then the indignant hemming and hawing begin.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostETA: Oh and "Error 404-Page NOT Found"
Enjoy
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThe Bible has an entire section where God Himself called openly for genocide. And that it was explicit genocide as well, with even children being killed as part of the order.
So does the Bible, and for most of Christian history being an atheist or criticizing Christianity was a capitol offense.
If you actually believed this sentence, you ought to be a Muslim.
Islam is made up. There isn't any divinely mandated Islam out there. So this sentence of yours is complete nonsense. There are at least five major branches of Islam, and within those various disagreements with each other. There is more diversity with the Islamic community over interpretation than there is between Christian churches. The gulf seperating a Suffi from a Wahabi is so vast they practically consider each other as being different religions.
The Koran is pretty clear about what is expected from its followers, and Mohammad set the example. I suppose you can argue that Islam is just a made up religion and that people are free to interpret and follow it however they want, but that's generally not how religions work, and certainly not how Islam has worked for the vast majority of its history.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI remember asking Cow Poke why he never criticises Conservatives, and he answered "Because they're already criticised by the leftists all the time, so I don't have to"
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThis doctrine can only be applied when you know which Surah abrogates what. Its the same in the Bible, except as it's laid out in chronological order (except for some of the Old Testament), we can see when Jesus, for instance, declares that divorced people cannot remarry, or that it is now permissible to ignore the laws of cleanliness, etc.
For the Quran its not at all clear. Ask around and you will get several answers. Most scholars I have found argue that it is indeed al-Nasr which is the last Surah revealed. It is also popular to consider verse three of Al-Ma'ida to be the last revelation, this is the basic outlook of the Sunni muslims which number at 90% of all muslims. The only places I find the argument that the ninth Surah is the last one, are ones made by Christians in criticising Islam.
There's also simple historical problem in that for most of history people just didn't forcefully convert, not even during conquest by muslims. They no more forcefully converted than people did when Christians came to conquer America, or settle colonies in various places (where they did sometimes perform forced baptism - regardless of scriptural merit or not). Eventual homogenization happened, which is not at all mysterious to me.
Originally posted by Leonhard View PostBut this begs the question if I show you a majority of scholars in the West saying that its al-Nasr, you'll argue that they're employing a secret strategy of lying. After all this notion that taqqiya is applied universally by Muslims as a get out of jail free card, is in itself an act of islamophobia. And borders on the kind of conspiracy theories Christians used to have about the jews.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostGod's very specific and limited commands to Israel...
The Koran is pretty clear ... and certainly not how Islam has worked for the vast majority of its history.Last edited by Leonhard; 09-11-2019, 04:09 PM.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAs previously pointed out the ninth Surah, the one that contains the verse (ayat) of the Sword, is considered either the last surah written (they're organized not in chronological order but IIRC their length) or very close to it. In any case, it abrogates any earlier verse that contradicts it.
For the Quran its not at all clear. Ask around and you will get several answers. Most scholars I have found argue that it is indeed al-Nasr which is the last Surah revealed. It is also popular to consider verse three of Al-Ma'ida to be the last revelation, this is the basic outlook of the Sunni muslims which number at 90% of all muslims. The only places I find the argument that the ninth Surah is the last one, are ones made by Christians in criticising Islam.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostI am also criticised all the time. By Cow Poke among others. I assume he is going to stop based on his principle.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostNope, you're not allowed to argue with context and exegesis, if you don't extend the same right to Muslims.
There are five major branches of Islam, within those there are further distinctions. In the vast majority of history, people have not undergone forced conversion, and most muslims don't believe that people should be forced to believe.
I really have no problem with Muslims ignoring some of their own theology and history, but then one begins to wonder why they still follow Islam at all.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostMuslims are allowed to use context and exegesis when interpreting their scriptures. I'm not sure why you think they don't. The problem is that this does nothing to mitigate the Koran's very explicit commands to kill unbelievers, and the example of Mohammad in carrying out these commands.
So no, you're not applying any context, nor are you trying to learn about what Muslim scholars in the West are arguing. It just looks like to me that you want to do quote-mining on Islam, and use that against them in exactly the same way that atheists quote mine the Bible.
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