Massive Muslim Immigration...

[Cow Poke]

Is that a bad thing? I seem to recall more than one baptist priest in the US

There are no Baptist priests in the US.

talking about how certain things like spousal abuse should be brought before elders, before its brought before police officers.

Are you sure that was Baptists?

The Catholic Church itself maintains a religious tribunal for legislating things like divorce and remarriage cases. The hasedic jews maintain their own internal courts for deciding various disputes.

Simply saying "Sharia Law", as if its one simple homogenous thing, doesn't really make sense.

The last time we had one of these conversations I remember people here saying that a place where I went shopping quite frequently was a no-go zone. I think there's a lot of unwarranted alarmism about muslim immigrants.

There are concerns as well, and I definitely agree that the integration process has been slow going. Which means its not a good idea for Denmark to accept a huge amount of immigration like we did during the last refugee crisis.

Do you think Sharia law is very friendly to LBGQT+ or women?

[Cow Poke]

Never said it was.

So, are you ever going to get to the place where you actually make a point? Do you HAVE a point, Magee?

[KingsGambit]

Is that a bad thing? I seem to recall more than one baptist priest in the US talking about how certain things like spousal abuse should be brought before elders, before its brought before police officers. The Catholic Church itself maintains a religious tribunal for legislating things like divorce and remarriage cases. The hasedic jews maintain their own internal courts for deciding various disputes.

I disagree with the notion that abuse victims should avoid going to police (Owen Strachan wrote up an extended theological justification for battered Christian women doing so that I found convincing), but as far as general disputes among Christians, Paul ordered Christians to bypass the secular legal system in lieu of solving it internally. So criticizing sharia under the grounds of a failure to assimilate would prove way too much for Christians. This is, practically speaking, what most sharia would look like in the US (as opposed to Muslims chopping heads off people for various "offenses").

Having said that, local sharia courts should have no standing under secular court. There was one case in New Jersey a few years ago where a judge deferred to sharia law in refusing to give recourse to an abuse victim. Even though it was later overturned, the very fact that even one judge saw fit to do it justifies the pushes to make sure that courts cannot recognize sharia in the future, and to dismiss this as Islamophobic is not a worthy retort.

[KingsGambit]

Are you sure that was Baptists?

I have heard of this happening among conservative Protestants, though I think it's a distinct minority.

Isn't this what Paige Patterson is accused of doing basically?

[Cow Poke]

I have heard of this happening among conservative Protestants, though I think it's a distinct minority.

Yeah, I think it's "out there".

Isn't this what Paige Patterson is accused of doing basically?

Speaking of "out there"...

[Mountain Man]

Is this the most important question to ask when confronted with people in need? Ideally you don't help others for your own benefit.

Ideally? No, personal benefit should never be a consideration when helping others. But if you hadn't noticed, we don't live in an ideal world, and so things are rarely as simplistic as that.

To put it another way, it depends on the constellation of demands.

[Charles]

Ideally? No, personal benefit should never be a consideration when helping others. But if you hadn't noticed, we don't live in an ideal world, and so things are rarely as simplistic as that.

To put it another way, it depends on the constellation of demands.

I already commented on that:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post668546

[oxmixmudd]

Thanks, Sam. Stop in any time.

This is not the response of a person that is an ambassador for Christ to Sam's appeal. It just isn't. May God remind you of His love and grace and whose you are. You are bought with a price. And you are called to something much greater than this. Let Him change you CP. This sort of response demans you and the Lord who gave His life for you.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

I already commented on that:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post668546

And I already responded to your comment.

[Cow Poke]

This is not the response of a person that is an ambassador for Christ to Sam's appeal. It just isn't. May God remind you of His love and grace and whose you are. You are bought with a price. And you are called to something much greater than this. Let Him change you CP. This sort of response demans you and the Lord who gave His life for you.

Jim

Jim, you might want to tone down the holier-than-thou judgmental arrogance. I had talked to Sam "back channel", and apologized to him for being rude to him in the past. (I think I even apologized to him publicly in one of the threads)

Since he and I clearly disagree on some issues, I sincerely thanked him for his comment, and let him know he was welcome back here any time.

And you might want to work just a tad on that big log in your own eye....

[Leonhard]

There are no Baptist priests in the US.

I think this just reflects my Lutheran upbringing. That big important guy in the assembly, that's the priest. The one who hugs the pulpit time.

Are you sure that was Baptists?

Just gripping out some of the old google searches... Southern Baptists, in particular, have in many instances adviced abused women not to go to the police, and instead direct them to talk to other people in the Church first. Typically a group of men, who are 'senior' in the church. The elders then in many cases tell the women that they have to submit to their husbands. John Piper in particular seemed to be squeamish around the topic, talking a lot about how women ought to be able to trust their community. Not directly answering whether its okay to go to the police first, before seeking help from the community.

He famously in a video suggested that abused women should try to "endure the abuse for a season".

Only after a huge flood of testimonies poured out and investigations revealed rampant spousal abuse in his congregations did he release a single article saying that going to the authorities wasn't disobeying Christ. And of course eventually, after some years, he also took down the video advicing women to endure the abuse.

And this is no just on Southern Baptists. Whenever you have religious communities where a group of men, ordained or not, start to legislate issues within people's marriage, you quickly develop these issues. Its no different with certain toxic Catholic dioceses.

So to single out Sharia law for doing something we're perfectly fine with Southern Baptists, Catholics, Hasedics, Eastern Orthodox, etc... of doing, is a bit unfair.

Do you think Sharia law is very friendly to LBGQT+ or women?

Are you here referring to the fact that I'm gay Cow Poke? If you do, I don't think that's fair in this conversation. Nor would Christian communities come out as great as you think they would.

[Leonhard]

I disagree with the notion that abuse victims should avoid going to police (Owen Strachan wrote up an extended theological justification for battered Christian women doing so that I found convincing), but as far as general disputes among Christians, Paul ordered Christians to bypass the secular legal system in lieu of solving it internally. So criticizing sharia under the grounds of a failure to assimilate would prove way too much for Christians. This is, practically speaking, what most sharia would look like in the US (as opposed to Muslims chopping heads off people for various "offenses").

Having said that, local sharia courts should have no standing under secular court. There was one case in New Jersey a few years ago where a judge deferred to sharia law in refusing to give recourse to an abuse victim. Even though it was later overturned, the very fact that even one judge saw fit to do it justifies the pushes to make sure that courts cannot recognize sharia in the future, and to dismiss this as Islamophobic is not a worthy retort.

But that is not what is happening in these threads KingsGambit, as I said, Sharia is discussed as if its one thing. A well-defined, very particular kind of law, that all muslims arguing for sharia law agrees on, both in content and in application. Its also argued about in light of no-go zones, for which, even though there are known cases of that, man people like to blow the problem out of proportion. Vis-a-vis Bazaar Vest, which is where I shopped a lot for a while, and many still do, was referred to consistently as a no-go zone in discussions like this. Even though I could personally testify that it wasn't.

For crying out loud more caucasian danes shop there than the ethnic minorities.

So while you might say that blowing off any concern about Sharia law won't do, there's not much doubting that a lot of the OP's on this topic display a lot of islamophobia.

[Cow Poke]

I think this just reflects my Lutheran upbringing. That big important guy in the assembly, that's the priest. The one who hugs the pulpit time.

Yes, sir - that would be our Pastors.

Just gripping out some of the old google searches... Southern Baptists, in particular, have in many instances adviced abused women not to go to the police, and instead direct them to talk to other people in the Church first. Typically a group of men, who are 'senior' in the church. The elders then in many cases tell the women that they have to submit to their husbands. John Piper in particular seemed to be squeamish around the topic, talking a lot about how women ought to be able to trust their community. Not directly answering whether its okay to go to the police first, before seeking help from the community.

Must have been before my time, or different region of the country.... I've never experienced that at all.

Only after a huge flood of testimonies poured out and investigations revealed rampant spousal abuse in his congregations did he release a single article saying that going to the authorities wasn't disobeying Christ.

And this is no just on Southern Baptists. Whenever you have religious communities where a group of men, ordained or not, start to legislate issues within people's marriage, you quickly develop these issues. Its no different with certain toxic Catholic dioceses.

I am fully aware of the encouragement from clergy to seek reconciliation, but I have never experienced any situations like you describe.

So to single out Sharia law for doing something we're perfectly fine with Southern Baptists, Catholics, Hasedics, Eastern Orthodox, etc... of doing, is a bit unfair.

There's a difference between variant policies and actual law, Leon... we certainly don't have honor killings and rules against women driving and being in public without a guardian.... Have you studied Sharia law?

Are you here referring to the fact that I'm gay Cow Poke?

I am not. I was unaware you were - I knew you had some issues there, but... no, certainly not.

If you do, I don't think that's fair in this conversation. Nor would Christian communities come out as great as you think they would.

I don't think you'll find many mainline Christian communities calling for the execution of homosexuals, Leon.

[Leonhard]

TLDR; he spends most of it talking about a hypothetical situation where man wants his wife to engage in group sex, and how she should say no to that.
Jump to 2:35, if you wanna skip that.

He makes two points:
1) An abused woman should endure the verbal abuse, or the physical abuse for a season.
2) After that the abused woman should seek help from the church.
3) At no point does he mention talking to secular authorities. Discipline of the husband should be by the church.

[Roy]

Does that mean we should refuse orthodox jews immigration status? They certainly do NOT assimilate in the nanner you seem to be implying.

Should we then begin deporting the amish, or mennonites? They certainly haven't 'assimilated' either.

Jim

Almost no European immigrants to the Americas assimilated into the native culture. Rogue's argument leads ultimately to his own deportation.