The irony of the New York Times� 1619 Project...

[oxmixmudd]

And on the other hand, the left often finds racism and offence in places that are almost certainly unwarranted. The truth is probably closer to the middle, racism does exist in forms that are more implicit than explicit, but it's not the all pervasive boogieman that some have made it out to be.

I think a lot of it is unconscious. Have you ever heard an older relative say "I'm not racist but ..." and then they say something blatantly racist? They don't see it, but we do. And I just imagine a lot of us are just like that in our own way. It's just not always easy to see where it is - especially in ourselves - unless something forces it to the surface. But in the end, the statistics say it's there. And I see it - not all the time - but enough to know it's there more than we think it is.

And I tend to think elements of it are ingrained in both black and white cultures. Both have to change to make a difference. But nothing can change till we all wake up to the fact it still exists and that we all have to work together to make it better or it will just continue.

Jim

[lilpixieofterror]

I would say, on the contrary, that racism is often systemic and deeply embedded in culture, such that we can find plenty of people on the left who regularly practice and uphold racism, with or without knowing it. A whole lot of upper/upper-middle class NIMBY liberals out there who maintain racial segregation by laundering it through "neighborhood value".

--Sam

You mean those that spend their days obsessed about race, are the most racist? Who would have thought that?

[Sparko]

They are using AI. I don't see how someone could even claim they aren't without spending the short amount of time it takes checking the claim.

--Sam

I don't think you know much about databases or AI, Sam. Or that you have even bothered to use a site like Zillow or realtor.com. You might want to try it. Simple selection criteria is how it returns results.

Here is an experiment. Go there and search in your regular browser with all of your tracking cookies and whatnot active. Then start an icognito browser and do the same search and see if you get the same results.

[Mountain Man]

If the algorithms were doing that on Zillow and Realtor.com then it wouldn't be an accident, it would be programmed into the search engines and even google and the other data aggregates. Which means that all of those sites and companies are racists. We already know they are liberal, but now apparently they are all white supremacists who are conspiring to keep the black man down.

I want Sam to say that is what he believes is happening.

Or it means that there is one entity controlling the entire internet and is injecting its "big data" algorithms into every site you visit, which is why I said this is starting to sound like a conspiracy theory.

It reminds me of a scene from Doctor Who when they meet a mysterious rich man...

"This is Mr. Van Statten. He owns the internet."
"Don't be silly. Nobody owns the internet."
"And we'll just let everyone keep believing that."

[Sam]

Did you even read that? It is talking about two different things: targeted advertising on the site, and how it gathers results for things like price comparisons, historical data and school and crime reports. Stuff you might want to know about a listing.

Not how it finds what you are looking for. The search engine is basic. The information it contains is more complex.

This is honestly tedious. I don't feel the need to keep pointing out that online real estate listers use AI and big data, something that is not a matter of debate among any modestly-informed people.

How they're using that AI is complex and likely mostly hidden under trade secrets. But they're definitely using it for rankings and display, like every other major company providing users with a table of results.

If you want to argue that they're probably not inserting implicit or explicit discriminatory code into these algorithms, go for it. But the possibility is certainly there and online real estate listings are no panacea for racial discrimination in the housing market.

--Sam

[lilpixieofterror]

This is honestly tedious. I don't feel the need to keep pointing out that online real estate listers use AI and big data, something that is not a matter of debate among any modestly-informed people.

How they're using that AI is complex and likely mostly hidden under trade secrets. But they're definitely using it for rankings and display, like every other major company providing users with a table of results.

If you want to argue that they're probably not inserting implicit or explicit discriminatory code into these algorithms, go for it. But the possibility is certainly there and online real estate listings are no panacea for racial discrimination in the housing market.

--Sam

*weak point, yell louder*

[Sam]

I don't think you know much about databases or AI, Sam. Or that you have even bothered to use a site like Zillow or realtor.com. You might want to try it. Simple selection criteria is how it returns results.

Here is an experiment. Go there and search in your regular browser with all of your tracking cookies and whatnot active. Then start an icognito browser and do the same search and see if you get the same results.

This is likewise a misunderstanding of how data is compiled and used; it's no longer dependent on "cookies and whatnot". But so long as we're on that subject, I wouldn't advise anyone that "going incognito" protects them from being specifically tracked.

--Sam

[lilpixieofterror]

Or it means that there is one entity controlling the entire internet and is injecting its "big data" algorithms into every site you visit, which is why I said this is starting to sound like a conspiracy theory.

It reminds me of a scene from Doctor Who when they meet a mysterious rich man...

"This is Mr. Van Statten. He owns the internet."
"Don't be silly. Nobody owns the internet."
"And we'll just let everyone keep believing that."

[Mountain Man]

But in the end, the statistics say it's there. And I see it - not all the time - but enough to know it's there more than we think it is.

Ever heard of confirmation bias?

[Sparko]

This is honestly tedious. I don't feel the need to keep pointing out that online real estate listers use AI and big data, something that is not a matter of debate among any modestly-informed people.

How they're using that AI is complex and likely mostly hidden under trade secrets. But they're definitely using it for rankings and display, like every other major company providing users with a table of results.

If you want to argue that they're probably not inserting implicit or explicit discriminatory code into these algorithms, go for it. But the possibility is certainly there and online real estate listings are no panacea for racial discrimination in the housing market.

--Sam

[oxmixmudd]

Ever heard of confirmation bias?

Yep - have you?

Jim

[Sparko]

This is likewise a misunderstanding of how data is compiled and used; it's no longer dependent on "cookies and whatnot". But so long as we're on that subject, I wouldn't advise anyone that "going incognito" protects them from being specifically tracked.

--Sam

Going incognito starts a new window without any previous cookies, so any site would be effectively starting without knowing who you are.
Or use a TOR browser. It effectively hides your IP address, and all data about you.

[oxmixmudd]

Or it means that there is one entity controlling the entire internet and is injecting its "big data" algorithms into every site you visit, which is why I said this is starting to sound like a conspiracy theory.

It reminds me of a scene from Doctor Who when they meet a mysterious rich man...

"This is Mr. Van Statten. He owns the internet."
"Don't be silly. Nobody owns the internet."
"And we'll just let everyone keep believing that."

That is not how 'big data' works.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Going incognito starts a new window without any previous cookies, so any site would be effectively starting without knowing who you are.
Or use a TOR browser. It effectively hides your IP address, and all data about you.

TOR should work better. Incognito will not.


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

*weak point, yell louder*

That is not what's happening. What is happening here is that the lack of understanding of AI, machine learning, big data etc is being dealt with through a dunning kruger filter: you don't know enough about it to know what you don't know, or to be cautious about your pronouncements of what may or may not be being done with it, or how they correlate information and track it to 'you'.


Jim