The Death Of Plastic Bags...

[Teallaura]

What is the incorrect scope? That the report refers to grocery store bags used in Danish supermarkets, and rebuttal refers to grocery store bags used in the country of Denmark? I'm sincerely trying to figure out what you're pointing out here.

One is necessarily smaller than the other - I DID say 'minor'.

I still don't get what you're getting at. Here's page 18 of the report Sparko linked,

Source: Life Cycle Assessmentof grocery carrier bagsEnvironmental Project no. 1985February 2018

Our final recommendations are the following:

. . .

• Organic cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 149 times for climate change, at least 20000 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, otherwise incinerate.
• Conventional cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 52 times for climate change, at least 7100 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, otherwise incinerate.

© Copyright Original Source

How is that different from the rebuttal's,

Source: https://medium.com/@papersinthewood/breaking-down-the-danish-study-on-the-environmental-impacts-of-grocery-carrier-bags-b8c97eb6c8fb

Accordingly, one of its conclusions was that the conventional and organic cotton bags must be used at least 7,100 and 20,000 times respectively in order to meet the environmental performance of LDPE plastic bags.

© Copyright Original Source

Hmm, I misread Sparky's post.

They are both wrong - that's not what the paper itself says.

[Teallaura]

No. I did not say a workaround exists (past tense). I said that "a workaround can be found," and I'm certain one can be.



I see no reason to believe that cost is likely to increase.

See, here is where you are just opining - I already showed the cost increase. You assert 'a workaround can be found'. Fine, I'll rephrase. Prove it. I gave factual reasons that cost will increase using known 'workarounds'. You prove that a free (which is the current cost of donated bags) workaround will be found.

I completely agree. It is an odd hill to die on, so I'm not sure why Christians here are persisting, especially since they already accept that stewardship is part of the Christian call.

Shifty goalpost there.

Because it does not END. You are literally arguing that we should replace one environmental protection with another - minus the hard data to show that yes, THIS time it will work and we won't be changing again in twenty - or even forty - years.

And I notice you didn't address the concern that grocery bags will just be replaced with other plastic alternatives that aren't as environmentally friendly. Hefty hypes how tough it is, not how fast it breaks down once buried.

And why is replacing with better biodegradables not an option? You left that one alone, as well.

Why is this all or nothing for you? We MUST ban grocery bags - even biodegradable ones - and we CANNOT look at the reality that people substitute other, more difficult alternatives of their own?

[Sparko]

show me the workaround you assert must exist.

I know a place where you can get reusable shopping carts for 25 cents!

[Adrift]

See, here is where you are just opining - I already showed the cost increase. You assert 'a workaround can be found'. Fine, I'll rephrase. Prove it. I gave factual reasons that cost will increase using known 'workarounds'. You prove that a free (which is the current cost of donated bags) workaround will be found.

Rephrasing your demand won't change my answer.

Shifty goalpost there.

Because it does not END. You are literally arguing that we should replace one environmental protection with another - minus the hard data to show that yes, THIS time it will work and we won't be changing again in twenty - or even forty - years.

And I notice you didn't address the concern that grocery bags will just be replaced with other plastic alternatives that aren't as environmentally friendly. Hefty hypes how tough it is, not how fast it breaks down once buried.

And why is replacing with better biodegradables not an option? You left that one alone, as well.

Why is this all or nothing for you? We MUST ban grocery bags - even biodegradable ones - and we CANNOT look at the reality that people substitute other, more difficult alternatives of their own?

I reject the notion that in place of grocery store bags we must use plastic alternatives that aren't as environmentally friendly. I'm fine with using better biodegradable options. If I left it alone it's probably because I had no argument against it.

[Sparko]

Rephrasing your demand won't change my answer.



I reject the notion that in place of grocery store bags we must use plastic alternatives that aren't as environmentally friendly. I'm fine with using better biodegradable options. If I left it alone it's probably because I had no argument against it.

Well my solution is to just stop going to grocery stores, order online and have them deliver directly to me. Then they can take their durn bags/boxes/whatevers back with them.

Or just charge people a per bag deposit fee and they get it back when they return the plastic bags to the grocery store where they can be recycled or disposed of.

[KingsGambit]

Well my solution is to just stop going to grocery stores, order online and have them deliver directly to me. Then they can take their durn bags/boxes/whatevers back with them.

Or just charge people a per bag deposit fee and they get it back when they return the plastic bags to the grocery store where they can be recycled or disposed of.

I know this is where things are going, but the number of jobs lost in the process seems to present an even worse issue.

[Adrift]

They are both wrong - that's not what the paper itself says.

I quoted the paper itself.

Another article that turned up in my googling came from Dane researcher Marianne Bigum (again, no giggling), who seems to agree with Kometsopha,

https://ramboll.com/ingenuity/are-pl...er-alternative



A bit about the author,

Marianne Bigum currently works as a senior consultant at Ramboll (the Danish head quaters). Marianne Bigum previously worked at the Circular economy and waste department at the Danish Environmental Protection Agency, where she among other things worked with plastic waste management, policies and strategies. Marianne conducted research in Life cycle assessments of waste management at the Technical University, with a specific focus on environmental assessments of WEEE, with a focus on resource evaluation metal recovery.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Marianne_Bigum

[Sparko]

I know this is where things are going, but the number of jobs lost in the process seems to present an even worse issue.

Heck, They have to hire more people to do the shopping for you. When I go to Kroger, I see a more and more kroger employees doing shopping for online orders. I think eventually grocery stores will become more like Amazon, where you order online and they have a warehouse of food that they load up your order and then deliver it to you.

I am sure they will eventually find a way to automate it all, but for now, it takes people to do it all.

[KingsGambit]

Heck, They have to hire more people to do the shopping for you. When I go to Kroger, I see a more and more kroger employees doing shopping for online orders. I think eventually grocery stores will become more like Amazon, where you order online and they have a warehouse of food that they load up your order and then deliver it to you.

I am sure they will eventually find a way to automate it all, but for now, it takes people to do it all.

Yeah, but they won't have to spend as much money keeping the store presentable. Stockers won't have to invest time into setting up endcaps and displays. The store where I'm working has two people hired full time just to straighten the aisles during the day because customers mess them up. And if it's just a warehouse without customers, the need for multiple custodians is gone.

[Teallaura]

Rephrasing your demand won't change my answer.

Then my point stands - you can't show I'm wrong.

I reject the notion that in place of grocery store bags we must use plastic alternatives that aren't as environmentally friendly.

That's nice - wasn't the objection. Sparky already cited a stat showing an increase in the purchase of trash bags following the banning of grocery bags. So it isn't a matter of 'must' it's a matter of 'is'.

I'm fine with using better biodegradable options. If I left it alone it's probably because I had no argument against it.

But I proposed it and others agreed - yet we're poor Christian stewards because we won't ban all bags - that's what you argued. At least, you've opposed my arguments the entire way which were based on that replacement in place of an outright ban.

[Teallaura]

I quoted the paper itself.

Another article that turned up in my googling came from Dane researcher Marianne Bigum (again, no giggling), who seems to agree with Kometsopha,

https://ramboll.com/ingenuity/are-pl...er-alternative

As for the water consumption of the cotton bags. The functional unit of the environmental assessment is that is considers one regular plastic bag to be filled completely with groceries. The cotton bag you can buy in the supermarkets are slightly smaller than the plastic bag, and the report therefore assumes that you instead of buying one regular plastic bag buy two cotton bags. Basically, the environmental assessment compares using two half-empty cotton bags for each filled plastic bag. If we by better design could get just 2 liters more in the cotton bag, we could save one cotton bag, and cut the environmental impacts of using a cotton bag in half.

A bit about the author,

Marianne Bigum currently works as a senior consultant at Ramboll (the Danish head quaters). Marianne Bigum previously worked at the Circular economy and waste department at the Danish Environmental Protection Agency, where she among other things worked with plastic waste management, policies and strategies. Marianne conducted research in Life cycle assessments of waste management at the Technical University, with a specific focus on environmental assessments of WEEE, with a focus on resource evaluation metal recovery.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Marianne_Bigum

*emphasis mine

I also quoted the paper itself - where it defined the terms.

And WHUT? That's not true unless Denmark is even weirder than we thought. How the heck big ARE their plastic grocery bags?!

Where's Leo when ya need him?

[Adrift]

But I proposed it and others agreed - yet we're poor Christian stewards because we won't ban all bags - that's what you argued. At least, you've opposed my arguments the entire way which were based on that replacement in place of an outright ban.

If you believe that's what I've argued then you haven't been reading my posts with either precision or charity. I'm not sure which.

[Adrift]

Heck, They have to hire more people to do the shopping for you. When I go to Kroger, I see a more and more kroger employees doing shopping for online orders. I think eventually grocery stores will become more like Amazon, where you order online and they have a warehouse of food that they load up your order and then deliver it to you.

I am sure they will eventually find a way to automate it all, but for now, it takes people to do it all.

I'm waiting for Jetsons style bank tubes to deliver everything to our door.

[Teallaura]

If you believe that's what I've argued then you haven't been reading my posts with either precision or charity. I'm not sure which.

I've been reading them - and yeah, I think I have understood correctly.

[Sparko]

Yeah, but they won't have to spend as much money keeping the store presentable. Stockers won't have to invest time into setting up endcaps and displays. The store where I'm working has two people hired full time just to straighten the aisles during the day because customers mess them up. And if it's just a warehouse without customers, the need for multiple custodians is gone.

They will just have different jobs. Someone has to unload the trucks, stock the shelves, then shop. People still have to remove expired items, rotate produce, etc. Then they need delivery drivers, and probably more office people to keep track of the orders and accounting.