Originally posted by carpedm9587;6478@
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe thing about walls, they can't not be effective to some extent simply by their nature.
And, as with all things, the are the unintended consequences...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostExcept in the circumstance I cited. So far, no one has addressed those issues.
And, as with all things, the are the unintended consequences...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhere?
If someone wants to discuss the issues and facts (as we know them), I am more than happy to. But if all people want to do is suggest we should "trust the experts," then I don't have much else to say. I don't find that a very compelling argument.
Originally posted by seer View Post...the are the????The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostExcept in the circumstance I cited. So far, no one has addressed those issues.
And, as with all things, the are the unintended consequences...Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYour argument seems to be based on the idea that if one can not describe a perfect solution then no solution should be attempted.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - that was nowhere in my argument - or anywhere in any of my posts. Indeed, I explicitly said the opposite, and I have posted my immigration-related suggestions before.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt would help if you ever bothered to summarize your arguments or link back to the posts you are referring to instead of merely asserting "See my earlier posts" and then getting upset if someone gets your "argument" wrong.
I'm merely noting that "trust the experts" is not a very good argument.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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If fencing cannot work, why do we spend so much on it worldwide?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostIf fencing cannot work, why do we spend so much on it worldwide?
What I did say was that Trump's wall is not going to solve the immigration problem, and cannot even be reasonably used for much of the southern border (i.e., along the length of the Rio Grande), for the reasons I cited, which are: a) there is no place build it that does not produce serious negative consequences (isolation from the river and/or white-elephant maintenance costs, emminent domain issues, etc.), b) it doesn't stop/address the asylum issue, and c) there are swaths of the border where wall cannot be built because it is reservation land. Where it can be deployed usefully, it should be, but as best I can tell many (most?) of those areas have already been built up and simply need repair/maintenance (i.e., in/near major cities and easy points of crossing). There are other tools that could/should be used to address the immigration issue. I've listed several of them in previous posts:
1) Address our historical involvement in the countries where much of this exodus is occurring
2) Create programs to enhance quality of living in those same countries
3) Bolster immigration resources to process asylum claims quickly (1-2 weeks max)
4) Supplement the wall as necessary and focus heavily on detection technology
5) Adjust immigration quotas to align with employment needs/opportunities
6) Create a simple process for seasonal workers (i.e., the Delta "Clear" model)
7) Implement an arduous path to citizenship for existing undocumented immigrants
8) Implement a path to citizenship for DACA people
9) Adopt a zero-tolerance policy for all future illegal immigrants of any kind
10) Adopt a zero tolerance policy for any current immigrant that runs afoul of the law for anything more than a misdemeanor.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostIf fencing cannot work, why do we spend so much on it worldwide?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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As has been noted multiple times, comparing fencing around a small property to a border fence along one piece of a country border is not an apples-to-apples comparison.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo, first, I didn't say "fencing cannot work." If a discussion is to be had, it might be best if the discussion is actually related to what I have said...just a thought.
What I did say was that Trump's wall is not going to solve the immigration problem, and cannot even be reasonably used for much of the southern border (i.e., along the length of the Rio Grande), for the reasons I cited, which are: a) there is no place build it that does not produce serious negative consequences (isolation from the river and/or white-elephant maintenance costs, emminent domain issues, etc.), b) it doesn't stop/address the asylum issue, and c) there are swaths of the border where call cannot be built because it is reservation land. Where it can be deployed usefully, it should be, but as best I can tell many (most?) of those areas have already been built up and need repair (i.e., in/near major cities and easy points of crossing). There are other tools that could/should be used to address the immigration issue. I've listed several of them in previous posts:
1) Address our historical involvement in the countries where much of this exodus is occurring
2) Create programs to enhance quality of living in those same countries
3) Bolster immigration resources to process asylum claims quickly (1-2 weeks max)
4) Supplement the wall as necessary and focus heavily on detection technology
5) Adjust immigration quotas to align with employment needs/opportunities
6) Create a simple process for seasonal workers (i.e., the Delta "Clear" model)
7) Implement an arduous path to citizenship for existing undocumented immigrants
8) Implement a path to citizenship for DACA people
9) Adopt a zero-tolerance policy for all future illegal immigrants of any kind
10) Adopt a zero tolerance policy for any current immigrant that runs afoul of the law for anything more than a misdemeanor.
Not everything is about you.
How, exactly, does that differ from Reagan's failed amnesty?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostInteresting. I actually laid out all of my reasons for why I believe as I do. So far, all that has come back in response is "why don't you believe the experts?" My philosophy professors would have called that an "appeal to authority," which is a logical fallacy.
Appeal to Authority
ExplanationExample
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostNot everything is about you.
Originally posted by Teallaura View PostHow, exactly, does that differ from Reagan's failed amnesty?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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