Kids In Cages...

[carpedm9587]

We are already 20 trillion in debt -the majority of that is in social programs - and you want more?

Seer - we are 20 trillion dollars in debt, but I don't see HOW you can make the case that this is from social programs. Last I checked, the debt is "general;" it reflects the difference between spending and income. While the two largest programs are Social Security and Medicare, those are also the only two programs that have their OWN tax on our payroll. Social Security has been operating in the black almost from its inception, and will cross over in 2020. Medicare has exactly the same share of the federal budget as military (15%), but has its own tax income stream (unlike the military). So I have no idea how you get to the claim that the bulk of our deficit is from "social programs."

Further, study after study has shown that addressing poverty (and education) in this country will pay for itself over the ensuing years in greater tax income and less crime - reducing the cost of incarceration, the cost of policing, the cost of courts, and the cost to society of the damage of crimes. So yes, I'm for "more" if it is the right "more." Addressing the issue at the border appropriately will require investment today for gains down the road. The same is true of addressing poverty and education.

[carpedm9587]

What fantasy land are you living in Carp? Have you been listening to the news the last year? Or the democrat debates and news releases? They are campaigning for decriminalizing border crossings, free healthcare for illegals, and giving nearly everyone asylum status which gives them access to monthly funds and housing assistance. At the same time they are letting their cities deteriorate into plague infested slums.

Thank you for repeating the Trump talking points. So SOME Dems are campaigning to decriminalize border crossings. I have mixed feelings about that one and have not looked into it closely enough to have an opinion yet. Healthcare for anyone in the country is inevitable. They get it now. Do you think a hospital emergency room turns away an illegal immigrant that is in distress? Of course not. And then we pay for their care in the inflated cost of our MRIs and other healthcare. Creating a system that factors that in simply makes sense - despite the anti immigrant sentiment from the right. I have not seen anyone arguing for giving everyone asylum status. If they are out there, I have no idea who they are. I certainly would not agree and there are a lot of Dems and independents who would likewise disagree.

Meanwhile, cities have not changed appreciably, despite Trump's latest flame wars (which I note have successfully shifted the discussion, at least temporarily, from what is happening at the border. I have often said the man is a media genius). Poverty remains an issue, but we have moved towards fighting poor people instead of fighting poverty. Education remains an issue, but we have moved towards defunding schools and redirecting funds instead of addressing the education issues.

So we are back at "nothing is happening." There are no bills passing, or even close to passing, that address either issue, because we continue to elect and reward politicians who refuse to work across the aisle to find solutions, and adopt "my way or the highway" thinking. So we are getting what "we the people" apparently want: stalemate and lack of progress. We are in a place where progress can only happen when one party has complete control (and not always then either), ensuring that one party will always "win" and the other party will always "lose."

Basically you just ignore and handwave away anything inconvenient to your internal fantasy narrative of what you think the world is like.

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The rest of this has no content I can respond to.

[Sparko]

Thank you for repeating the Trump talking points. So SOME Dems are campaigning to decriminalize border crossings. I have mixed feelings about that one and have not looked into it closely enough to have an opinion yet. Healthcare for anyone in the country is inevitable. They get it now. Do you think a hospital emergency room turns away an illegal immigrant that is in distress? Of course not. And then we pay for their care in the inflated cost of our MRIs and other healthcare. Creating a system that factors that in simply makes sense - despite the anti immigrant sentiment from the right. I have not seen anyone arguing for giving everyone asylum status. If they are out there, I have no idea who they are. I certainly would not agree and there are a lot of Dems and independents who would likewise disagree.

Meanwhile, cities have not changed appreciably, despite Trump's latest flame wars (which I note have successfully shifted the discussion, at least temporarily, from what is happening at the border. I have often said the man is a media genius). Poverty remains an issue, but we have moved towards fighting poor people instead of fighting poverty. Education remains an issue, but we have moved towards defunding schools and redirecting funds instead of addressing the education issues.

So we are back at "nothing is happening." There are no bills passing, or even close to passing, that address either issue, because we continue to elect and reward politicians who refuse to work across the aisle to find solutions, and adopt "my way or the highway" thinking. So we are getting what "we the people" apparently want: stalemate and lack of progress. We are in a place where progress can only happen when one party has complete control (and not always then either), ensuring that one party will always "win" and the other party will always "lose."



The rest of this has no content I can respond to.

Thank you for simply repeating your mental fantasies again. What I said had nothing to do with Trump talking points. I actually listen to the democrats when they make speeches and during the debates. MOST of them are for decriminalizing and opening the borders and free healthcare for illegals. And we are not talking about "emergency care" that anyone would get. We are talking about actual coverage, for doctor visits, routine care, drugs. And they are NOT giving that to homeless people. They are also not even acknowledging the problems in their trashed cities in California, Detroit, Baltimore. They are downplaying them. And when someone does point it out, they are called "racist".

[Cow Poke]

Then paint away, Mr. Rembrandt. Personally, I try not to paint entire groups of people with a single color. I'm not always successful, mind you, but at least I acknowledge it when CP points out I have done so.

"Mr Rembrandt" really isn't such a good example of a bad broad brusher, is he? Maybe Ziggy and Snarz who tag railroad cars.

[carpedm9587]

Thank you for simply repeating your mental fantasies again. What I said had nothing to do with Trump talking points. I actually listen to the democrats when they make speeches and during the debates. MOST of them are for decriminalizing and opening the borders and free healthcare for illegals.

Personally, I've never counted. I've listened to the two sides argue the issues, many of which came up at last night's debate and probably will again tonight. They are not in lockstep - so any attempt to paint "Dems" with a single brush simply fails before it starts.

And we are not talking about "emergency care" that anyone would get. We are talking about actual coverage, for doctor visits, routine care, drugs. And they are NOT giving that to homeless people.

I didn't say it was limited to emergency rooms, though I cited that as my example. And I picked that because most people who do NOT have access to a doctor due to lack of insurance end up at an emergency room, and then we pay for it. Preventative care does the same for them that it does for us: reduces the probability that things will escalate. I also find little use in citing another population that needs coverage and isn't getting it to make your point. IMO, universal healthcare coverage should be a given - for all populations.

They are also not even acknowledging the problems in their trashed cities in California, Detroit, Baltimore. They are downplaying them. And when someone does point it out, they are called "racist".

Horsehockey. The problems in cities are discussed and included in Dem talking points as well as Rep talking points. You're being selective in your listening. There is a difference between, "we have a problem with inner city crime, education, poverty, and education - what do we do?" and "why don't you go back to your rat and crime infested district."

I have to admit to some chuckling when I looked for some information related to this post and came across this ironic little tidbit. Maybe the rat/mice infestations have more to do with the slumlords and less to do with the residents? Just a thought...

[carpedm9587]

"Mr Rembrandt" really isn't such a good example of a bad broad brusher, is he? Maybe Ziggy and Snarz who tag railroad cars.

Actually - Rembrandt was an example of a painter...

...and I have no idea who Ziggy and Snarz are...

[Sparko]

Personally, I've never counted. I've listened to the two sides argue the issues, many of which came up at last night's debate and probably will again tonight. They are not in lockstep - so any attempt to paint "Dems" with a single brush simply fails before it starts.

And yet you questioned my statement and claimed "SOME" in all caps as if correcting me?

Here you go, during the first democratic debate they asked how many supported healthcare for illegal aliens...

1561685896984.jpg

I didn't say it was limited to emergency rooms, though I cited that as my example. And I picked that because most people who do NOT have access to a doctor due to lack of insurance end up at an emergency room, and then we pay for it. Preventative care does the same for them that it does for us: reduces the probability that things will escalate. I also find little use in citing another population that needs coverage and isn't getting it to make your point. IMO, universal healthcare coverage should be a given - for all populations.

SHOULD???? We are talking about what they are doing. And no, free healthcare should NOT be given to illegal aliens. Neither should welfare. If they want on the dole, the least they could do is come in the correct way, legally.

Horsehockey. The problems in cities are discussed and included in Dem talking points as well as Rep talking points. You're being selective in your listening. There is a difference between, "we have a problem with inner city crime, education, poverty, and education - what do we do?" and "why don't you go back to your rat and crime infested district."

How about some support for your claim? The Democrats are pretending the problem isn't there, or calling people racist for pointing the problems out.

Again, they need to fix their own constituent's problems before taking in illegals.

I have to admit to some chuckling when I looked for some information related to this post and came across this ironic little tidbit. Maybe the rat/mice infestations have more to do with the slumlords and less to do with the residents? Just a thought...

But Carp! Examples aren't evidence!

Baltimore is a lot bigger than a building or two.

[Cow Poke]

Actually - Rembrandt was an example of a painter...

A very precise painter.

[carpedm9587]

And yet you questioned my statement and claimed "SOME" in all caps as if correcting me?

Actually, this is a good point. Seer was speaking in broad-brush absolutes ("Dems") and your brush was a tad less broad ("most" instead of the implied "all"). I have no idea if it's most, many, some...but I do know there are voices against some of these positions. So I withdraw my "correction."

Here you go, during the first democratic debate they asked how many supported healthcare for illegal aliens...

1561685896984.jpg[/QUOTE]

Healthcare for illegal immigrants is fairly widely supported - and I agree with the position.

SHOULD???? We are talking about what they are doing. And no, free healthcare should NOT be given to illegal aliens. Neither should welfare. If they want on the dole, the least they could do is come in the correct way, legally.

I said nothing about welfare - and have not thought it through enough to have an opinion. As I noted - I believe healthcare coverage should be extended to all, for the reasons I cited: it is anyway.

How about some support for your claim?

The Democrats are pretending the problem isn't there, or calling people racist for pointing the problems out.

Warren: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/...ations/579268/
Sanders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fwOc_Ek8qA
Buttigieg: https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispa...-in-south-bend
Biden: http://www.issues2000.org/2020/Joe_Biden_Crime.htm (this one is generically on crime - every search for Biden on inner cities is swamped with reports from the recent Trump mix-up)
Harris: https://www.greenwichtime.com/news/a...e-14159581.php

This was in about 3 minutes of searching for Democratic positions and actions on issues directly related to inner cities.

Again, they need to fix their own constituent's problems before taking in illegals.

You are prone to these false dichotomies. There is no need for one to happen before the other. We are a nation of amazing resources - we can do both.

But Carp! Examples aren't evidence!

You might recall that I long ago amended that statement, because an example is evidence. Indeed, you were the one who convinced me to amend it. The problem is, a single example is not adequate evidence to make a claim that requires a statistical backing. If you want to make the case that the Republican tax cut was good for most Americans, "my taxes went down" is not adequate. It's one data point in a set that has tens of millions of members. I made no claims requiring statistical evidence - I suggested a possibility. If I want to make a definitive claim that "slum lords are the problem," I will need more data.

Baltimore is a lot bigger than a building or two.

How did "thousands of apartments and townhomes" become "a building or two?"

[demi-conservative]

Healthcare for illegal immigrants is fairly widely supported - and I agree with the position.

Fake moderate.

[carpedm9587]

A very precise painter.

Well - I could have named a local house painter...but I doubt he would have had a clue...

[carpedm9587]

Fake moderate.

[Cow Poke]

Well - I could have named a local house painter...but I doubt he would have had a clue...

OR you could have simply said "broad brush", which is certainly not descriptive of Rembrandt.

[Sparko]

Actually, this is a good point. Seer was speaking in broad-brush absolutes ("Dems") and your brush was a tad less broad ("most" instead of the implied "all"). I have no idea if it's most, many, some...but I do know there are voices against some of these positions. So I withdraw my "correction."

Warren: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/...ations/579268/
Sanders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fwOc_Ek8qA
Buttigieg: https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispa...-in-south-bend
Biden: http://www.issues2000.org/2020/Joe_Biden_Crime.htm (this one is generically on crime - every search for Biden on inner cities is swamped with reports from the recent Trump mix-up)
Harris: https://www.greenwichtime.com/news/a...e-14159581.php

This was in about 3 minutes of searching for Democratic positions and actions on issues directly related to inner cities.

I guess you didn't bother to actually read the links? None of them support what you think they do, and the one about Buttigieg is actually about how BAD he handled the homeless.


And Warren's link was about paying reparations. Another idiotic liberal

How did "thousands of apartments and townhomes" become "a building or two?"

How many apartment do you think are in an apartment building?

And again, an example is not evidence.

You might recall that I long ago amended that statement, because an example is evidence. Indeed, you were the one who convinced me to amend it. The problem is, a single example is not adequate evidence to make a claim that requires a statistical backing. If you want to make the case that the Republican tax cut was good for most Americans, "my taxes went down" is not adequate. It's one data point in a set that has tens of millions of members. I made no claims requiring statistical evidence - I suggested a possibility. If I want to make a definitive claim that "slum lords are the problem," I will need more data.

You just used that line on me a day or two ago regarding the woman from Honduras.

You just need to amend it to "YOUR examples are not evidence, but mine are!"

[carpedm9587]

OR you could have simply said "broad brush", which is certainly not descriptive of Rembrandt.

I did. I just liked adding the artistic flourish...