BTW Carp, I started a new thread here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...or-Rationality
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSince you can not decide what is self-evident without circular reasoning one wonders why you brought this whole self-evident thing up in the first place.
Originally posted by seer View PostI already said I assumed that the laws of logical were universal, and of course said laws are absolute since they are a reflection of God's immutable rational nature.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd how can you honestly dismiss circular reasoning since that is the basis for your self-evident truths, or even for knowing reality in the first place (as we discussed in the past).
You are piling vapor on top of vapor, thinking you are actually saying something and proving that "god is the source of logical absolutes/universals. That you do not see it is truly amazing.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019, 09:48 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostBTW Carp, I started a new thread here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...or-Rationality
ETA: BTW, that's pretty much the thread I suggested you start weeks ago, when the kerfuffle about the threads I had started was in full swing. You declined to create it then. I'm curious to know what changed that led you to create it now?Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019, 10:02 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBecause it is how the logical universal/absolutes are accepted - not through logical reasoning (except anecdotally post-factum), but intuitively. As soon as one tries to explain that "intution," one gets caught up in trying to make an argument, and circularity rears its head. No logical argument is possible.
And you STILL have not answered the question. The question is not about what you believe or do not believe. It is specifically about your argument: Yes or no, Seer - can your argument be shown to be valid if the basic laws of logic are not absolute/universal?
THAT is your mistake. We are the same in that we both accept the logical absolutes/universals AS absolute and universal. We are different in that I know I cannot frame a logical argument to defend that position and you are under the mistaken impression that you can.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is false Carp, how one decides what is self-evident is based first on reasoning. As you said, what the mind can not conceive as be otherwise, or contradictory, etc... In other words one needs standards and reasoning. Not intuition.
Originally posted by seer View PostOf course the laws of logic have to be absolute to make the argument. So what it your point? That does not account for said laws.
Originally posted by seer View PostTell me Carp, why wouldn't God account for or be the source of logical absolutes? Where is the problem?
Your argument requires its conclusion to be true just to be able to frame the argument. It employs premises whose truth value you cannot determine. The first renders the argument circular. The latter renders the soundness of the argument indeterminate. The result: your argument achieves nothing logically. I don't know your motivation for putting it forward - but the entire thing is pointless.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd any application of "reasoning" gets you caught in a circle, as noted.
If the laws have to be absolute/universal in order to make the argument, and the conclusion of the argument is "therefore absolute logical concepts are universal," then you have assumed your conclusion in order to make your argument. It is circular, despite your repeated insistence that it is not. A circular argument does not prove anything.
Your argument requires its conclusion to be true just to be able to frame the argument. It employs premises whose truth value you cannot determine. The first renders the argument circular. The latter renders the soundness of the argument indeterminate. The result: your argument achieves nothing logically. I don't know your motivation for putting it forward - but the entire thing is pointless.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe question is why do you accept such circularity when it comes to "self-evident" truths, which are not so self-evident without preceding reasoning.
Originally posted by seer View PostSo your argument for what is self-evident does not prove anything. Good to know.
Originally posted by seer View PostThen in your world all rationality is pointless.
Originally posted by seer View PostYou can not account for the laws of logic, self-evident truths, your own experience of reality - all these justifications end in circular arguments and according to you pointless.
I accept the fact of them without going further. You are further trying to squeeze "therefore I know the source" from your argument with absolutely no justification.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBecause there is no alternative.
Correct. It doesn't. That's the position we are ALL in. Likewise, your argument about god as the source of logical concepts doesn't prove anything. That's pretty much the point. We are all hoist on the same petard.
No.
...unless you simply accept the inevitable, which we all do. You too accept "universal/absolute logical concepts exist." Like me - you cannot rationally defend the position without getting caught in a circle. We all have to accept the fact of logical absolute/universals as a starting point for any rational discussion. We don't have have to accept the source of these concepts on the basis of circularity. The source of them doesn't change the fact of them.
I accept the fact of them without going further. You are further trying to squeeze "therefore I know the source" from your argument with absolutely no justification.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow can you say no when nothing is reached without circular reasoning? And that circular reasoning is pointless. You have no logical justification for anything...
Meanwhile, you are making an argument that destroys you along with me. As has been shown, there is no way to logically affirm the existence and nature of logical concepts without engaging in circularity. This is true for all of us. Even your argument has been shown to be circular. That leaves us with two possibilities:
1) We accept this inescapable reality, assume the truth of core logical concepts and proceed from there.
2) We reject all reason as "irrational" because the three core principles cannot be logically arrived at without circularity.
If you want to go for 2), knock yourself out. In that case, we should stop having logical discussions because they are pointless. I tend to 1), largely for somewhat obvious practical reasons.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019, 11:55 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI'm going to copyright that word so you'll have to pay royalties every time you use it in a sentence.
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostRead the last part of the post.
Meanwhile, you are making an argument that destroys you along with me. As has been shown, there is no way to logically affirm the existence and nature of logical concepts without engaging in circularity. This is true for all of us. Even your argument has been shown to be circular. That leaves us with two possibilities:
1) We accept this inescapable reality, assume the truth of core logical concepts and proceed from there.
2) We reject all reason as "irrational" because the three core principles cannot be logically arrived at without circularity.
If you want to go for 2), knock yourself out. In that case, we should stop having logical discussions because they are pointless. I tend to 1), largely for somewhat obvious practical reasons.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen you are in fact accepting circular reasoning as valid.
Originally posted by seer View PostThere is no knowledge that comes apart from circularity.
Originally posted by seer View PostYou can not even assume "the truth of core logical concepts" with out circularity.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
There is no knowledge that comes apart from the basic logical principles, which we accept as true prima facie.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow do you decide what is true prima facie with out being circular?
In this case, if I do NOT accept these principles as prima facie true, I am dead in the water. There is nothing I can do or say about anything. And even THAT explanation is circular.
You have the same problem. All of these questions could be asked of you - and you have no choice but to make the same answers. Except that you add "and I know where they come from" with no basis for that claim.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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