Originally posted by QuantaFille
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Civics 101 Guidelines
Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less
Alabama Abortion Ban:
Collapse
X
-
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
-
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe fact that he has conspicuously failed to address certain objections to his arguments suggests to me that he has his suspicions.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYep. A bit like Pascal's wager, but with someone else's life.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 05-20-2019, 02:28 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
-
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post(Augustine accepts the distinction, but much as I do, argued that distinction did NOT justify abortion as a means of birth control).
I also suggest reading the posts Adrift linked to earlier which address the historical and theological arguments you're using toprop updefend your position:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...257#post489257
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post506802Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
-
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNot really. The way to change my view on this would be to offer a clear rebuttal of the passage in Exodus concerning the way the accidental death of a fetus is dealt with. To date, most of what I've heard there is to effectively dismiss the elements that lead me to my conclusion. The problem there is that when I first read it, My opinion on abortion was your opinion. I read it in the NASV, and it seemed clear as day there was a difference. That God did not require life for a life if the fetus was not fully formed. Other translations as well. Only the more modern translations try to 'clarify it' in a way that is more in line with the more modern sense that it is from conception. Adding to that the way the Septuagint is translated makes it quite clear that to the Hellenistic Jew at least the original Hebrew was even clearer. And that my perception of what the text is saying is justified. There are also quotes from Josephus and Augustine that indicate this was also the view then (Augustine accepts the distinction, but much as I do, argued that distinction did NOT justify abortion as a means of birth control). So the problem here is that my view was changed from the more restrictive form you hold to its current form as a result of reading scripture and study, and so I don't think I'm making a wager of any sort. The first brain activity in the fetus occurs long before any ANE observer would have considered the baby fully formed.
Jim
Comment
-
Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostI thought I was going to be posting more in this thread, but Adrift is saying everything I want to say before I can say it myself.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostAdrift is like Rush...
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI wonder if Adrift will see that comparison as a compliment."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostIt's the thought that counts...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Adrift View PostAre we talking about Rush the band or Rush Limbaugh? I'm not a big fan of either, but I'll accept the compliment...I think.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by Adrift View PostJim, did you have a chance to read the links I offered in my previous posts on this subject when I first entered this thread? I cited a couple of scholars including Paul Copan and Michael Gorman who help contextualize the passage in question. Gorman, in particular, has some expertise in this field. Also, the Septuagint doesn't help your case. It makes clear that the fetus is the one harmed (see Old Testament scholar Victor Hamilton's Exegetical Commentary on Exodus on this point).
As a rule, it's usually not good exegesis to sort out complicated passages like this by the "plain reading" of various passages into English. It's always best to check a good commentary from a reliable scholar or peer reviewed work on the subject to come to a better understanding of the subject. Also, I question the value of looking over Augustine's shoulder on this sort of topic. He wasn't Jewish, wasn't (as far as I'm aware) intimately familiar with the culture, and was born nearly a thousand years after Exodus was written (at the earliest). Arguably, modern scholars have better text critical tools, and a better understanding of the culture to better exegete hard Hebrew passages.
The problem is that most modern scholars tend to dismiss the Septuagint's translation of that passage as a mistake, I believe in part because of the church's historical teaching that abortion is wrong. It is hard to accept that is the correct rendering if one is expecting to see the text support the idea that the fetus at all phases is a human person, and it is much easier to argue against abortion if the text does not mean what the Hellenistic Jews translated it to mean (Yet many of the early church fathers did just that). But more importantly why, given the degree to which Jewish Priests and scribes revere and cherish the Torah, could such an egregious mistake (as it is viewed today) EVER become fixed into something as widely used as the Septuagint (keeping in mind THAT is the text we often find quoted in the NT)? One answer is it simply was not a mistake.
As I see it, the awkwardness of the existing text, the fact it retains a sense that the death of the fetus is not treated as murder, the Septuagint's seemingly 'wrong' translation relative to the text as we know it today, and the general acceptance of that 'mistake' both by Jewish rabbis and Christian patriarchs from the time point to the Hebrew text of the passage as we know it today being the textual entity that is in error.
The evidence supporting that conclusion is presented in detail here. I have given the link before, but you may not have seen it.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 05-20-2019, 05:29 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
-
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI did read through them. I've not yet had time to fully follow up on them.
Maybe. But not if they are biased in such a way as to ignore the evidence that shows there is a problem with their conclusions.
The problem is that most modern scholars tend to dismiss the Septuagint's translation of that passage as a mistake, I believe in part because of the church's historical teaching that abortion is wrong. It is hard to accept that is the correct rendering if one is expecting to see the text support the idea that the fetus at all phases is a human person, and it is much easier to argue against abortion if the text does not mean what the Hellenistic Jews translated it to mean (Yet many of the early church fathers did just that). But more importantly why, given the degree to which Jewish Priests and scribes revere and cherish the Torah, could such an egregious mistake (as it is viewed today) EVER become fixed into something as widely used as the Septuagint (keeping in mind THAT is the text we often find quoted in the NT)? One answer is it simply was not a mistake.
As I see it, the awkwardness of the existing text, the fact it retains a sense that the death of the fetus is not treated as murder, the Septuagint's seemingly 'wrong' translation relative to the text as we know it today, and the general acceptance of that 'mistake' both by Jewish rabbis and Christian patriarchs from the time point to the Hebrew text of the passage as we know it today being the textual entity that is in error.
The evidence supporting that conclusion is presented in detail here. I have given the link before, but you may not have seen it.
JimSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostRush L...
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by Cow Poke, Yesterday, 06:29 AM
|
32 responses
171 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cow Poke
Yesterday, 07:40 PM
|
||
Started by carpedm9587, 06-16-2024, 08:13 PM
|
13 responses
81 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by JimL
Yesterday, 10:31 PM
|
||
Started by eider, 06-16-2024, 12:12 AM
|
29 responses
160 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by NorrinRadd
Today, 01:10 AM
|
||
Started by Cow Poke, 06-15-2024, 12:53 PM
|
52 responses
273 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cow Poke
Yesterday, 11:27 AM
|
||
Started by Diogenes, 06-14-2024, 08:57 PM
|
112 responses
517 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by eider
Today, 12:32 AM
|
Comment