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The strange greatness of Donald Trump
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Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-10-2019, 11:11 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostA popular vote ignores state powers in favor of the individual. The current system ignores individuals in favor of state powers. If the vote were to balance these things, then each state would divide their electoral votes the same way Congress is elected: one electoral vote allocated on the basis of the congressional district, and two electoral votes allocated based on the vote of the state. That is what I would consider ideal. But it is not enforceable. So the second best is to simply revert to the popular vote and align the presidency with the other offices in our country. States still have representation in Congress and there is still a judicial branch.
What makes you think I haven't? And asserting someone is "ignorant" does not make them actually ignorant. I actually have a pretty extensive knowledge of U.S. history and government. Disagreeing is not the same as not knowing.
You really should try to stay focused on the arguments and set aside the personal observations. They don't really help your arguments. But if it's the best you can do....
Do you think you or other modern people are the first to think of a popular vote for President? The founding fathers considered that when they decided on the electoral college instead. All of these arguments pro and con were argued by the founding fathers at the beginning. And they determined that the best compromise between the states and the people voting for president was to use REPRESENTATIVE Electors in the electoral college.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou told OBP you wouldn't bother with them. And your arguments here show you haven't.
And you are confusing "disagreement" with "lack of knowledge."
Originally posted by Sparko View PostDo you think you or other modern people are the first to think of a popular vote for President?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe founding fathers considered that when they decided on the electoral college instead.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAll of these arguments pro and con were argued by the founding fathers at the beginning. And they determined that the best compromise between the states and the people voting for president was to use REPRESENTATIVE Electors in the electoral college.
The historical record suggests I am right - the electoral college does NOT do what it was intended to do in any way that would be substantively different than a straight popular vote. I favor the popular vote for that reason AND the fact that it disproportionately favors specific voters. IN a very real sense, it makes it possible for some people to vote 3.73 times (effectively) for the candidate of their choice (different values arise between different states). Dividing them by district/state helps, but does not eliminate this phenomenon.
One person - one vote - at all levels of government. That is what I favor, so I am 100% behind the Interstate Compact that would give electors to the winner of the popular vote. The electoral college remains, but the popular vote drives their allocation, instead of the current system of winner-takes-all at the state level.
*Note that the FFs also believed that only landed, white, men should be allowed to vote. I disagree with that too!Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-10-2019, 11:31 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI changed my mind and decided I was cutting myself off from available information.
And you are confusing "disagreement" with "lack of knowledge."
No.
I'm aware. I disagree with them. The electoral college was conceived before the formation of political parties (which many of the Founding Fathers were dead set against) and was never meant to be "party aligned." But that is what has happened since they were formed, subverting the initial purposes of the electoral college.
And I disagree with them*
The historical record suggests I am right - the electoral college does NOT do what it was intended to do in any way that would be substantively different than a straight popular vote. I favor the popular vote for that reason AND the fact that it disproportionately favors specific voters. IN a very real sense, it makes it possible for some people to vote 3.73 times (effectively) for the candidate of their choice (different values arise between different states). Dividing them by district/state helps, but does not eliminate this phenomenon.
One person - one vote - at all levels of government. That is what I favor, so I am 100% behind the Interstate Compact that would give electors to the winner of the popular vote. The electoral college remains, but the popular vote drives their allocation, instead of the current system of winner-takes-all at the state level.
*Note that the FFs also believed that only landed, white, men should be allowed to vote. I disagree with that too!
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWell I and most others disagree with you! so there.
I suspect many liberals/Democrats have that sentiment because they feel that two presidential elections were "stolen" from them. That perspective was probably further aggravated when Senate Republicans stole a SCOTUS seat in 2016. There's a lot of bad blood right now in the political fray - and it is coloring a lot of opinions.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat is the brief version of your argument, MM:
The minority needs to be protected against the majority, because the majority is "mob rule."
If you think it's not, feel free to correct whatever part of what I just said is NOT correct. Do you not, in the end, want the smaller mob to be able to win?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI've corrected you several times already. I have no interest in doing it again.
1) popular vote = mob rule
2) mob rule = bad
3) FF's didn't want perpetual mob rule and wanted to protect the minority against the "tyranny of the majority."
1) has not been shown to be true. Indeed, the difference between the majority and minority is less than 2% for most of the elections, which means we have two mobs of slightly different sizes. Making the case for the will of the smaller mob being better than the larger mob will be essentially impossible for you to accomplish.
2) becomes irrelevant because of the failure of 1)
3) is irrelevant because it is an appeal to authority - not an argument.
QED
ETA: You also added the note about the Clinton election and the emergence of small parties. I, personally, would welcome the emergence small parties. The two party system we have now has led to the polarization we have now. Time, IMO< for a change.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYeah - kind of what I thought. Sorry, MM, but I have gone through all of your posts twice now, and this is basically what you have said:
1) popular vote = mob rule
2) mob rule = bad
3) FF's didn't want perpetual mob rule and wanted to protect the minority against the "tyranny of the majority."
1) has not been shown to be true. Indeed, the difference between the majority and minority is less than 2% for most of the elections, which means we have two mobs of slightly different sizes. Making the case for the will of the smaller mob being better than the larger mob will be essentially impossible for you to accomplish.
2) becomes irrelevant because of the failure of 1)
3) is irrelevant because it is an appeal to authority - not an argument.
QED
ETA: You also added the note about the Clinton election and the emergence of small parties. I, personally, would welcome the emergence small parties. The two party system we have now has led to the polarization we have now. Time, IMO< for a change."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThe two parties have so throughly entrenched themselves in the political landscape, you would need a total restructure of election laws to make a valid 3rd party.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostUntil then, any 3rd party or independent candidate serves only as a spoiler to one or the other "two party" candidates."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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But only the minorities that they approve of and who reside on their plantation.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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And how are these things mutually exclusive?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThe two parties have so throughly entrenched themselves in the political landscape, you would need a total restructure of election laws to make a valid 3rd party.
Of course if we ever HAD a significant third party, the presidential election would probably go to Congress more often than not.
But all of this is speculation. We don't have much of a chance of a significant third party emerging.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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