Pro-choice distortion

[Cow Poke]

Many? Contraception prevents unwanted pregnancies, which prevents abortions. Unless you're referring to Plan B drugs, which are not technically contraception.



This is the first I've heard. I'm all for paid maternity leave.



We're against sex education that encourages promiscuity (or at least doesn't encourage abstinence/responsibility) because it leads to unwanted pregnancies which increases the number of abortions. Few contraceptives are 100% effective, especially those available to kids in middle school and high school (birth control pills or other hormonal methods for instance are not advised until well after puberty for developmental reasons).

We (at least, I am) all for sex ed that encourages responsibility (there's that word again). It's also important for there to be parental involvement, where the parents as well as the teachers are an influence on the kids. For the most part people want their children to develop healthy habits regarding romantic relationships, they just expect teachers to do all of that training and mentoring for them. The parents can't do it all on their own because of the sheer amount of medical knowledge that goes with the topic, so there needs to be a coordinated effort on the part of all parties.



Perhaps a possible solution is to find out why a few people are fighting against these things, and work from there.



The way most on the right see it though, is that you can lose rights through irresponsibility. If you break the law by driving without a license or car insurance, and you cause an accident, you lose rights you would have otherwise had. If you sleep around and/or use contraceptives in a careless manner and you get pregnant, you have a resposibility to the wellbeing of that child even if you don't recognise it as such. The person who caused the car accident wants to continue driving without a license or insurance, but the state forces them to give up some of their rights even though the person thinks they shouldn't have to.



Does the state have the right to force me to obtain a driver license and car insurance? Does the state have the right to remove children from a home where they are abused?



You mean like the crisis pregnancy centers that already exist? And the responsible sex ed I mentioned?

Carpe, I hereby authorize Quanta as my agent on record to represent my arguments and responses on this topic in this thread. This is my beloved mod, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to her.

[QuantaFille]

So, you would agree that this should be presented to all women who are considering abortion, yes? It should be required that they acknowledge the risks, just like anybody who has surgery has to sign off on understanding the risks, complications, etc?

And how do we know how many women (many / most) do not suffer any (yeah, I changed that word) serious post-abortion distress? Where would you get unbiased data? How willing would a woman be to admit, "yeah, I had an abortion, and now I regret it, and am suffering...." It seems the natural tendency would be simply to rationalize or justify, rather than 'confess'.

For example, here's a claim...



Naturally, Big Abortion would present a much less damaging study.

My understanding is that the sudden disruption of the normal hormonal process of gestation causes a significant change in brain chemistry and is at least partly the cause of depression after a miscarriage. An abortion is essentially an induced miscarriage so the body chemistry is very similar.

[Cow Poke]

My understanding is that the sudden disruption of the normal hormonal process of gestation causes a significant change in brain chemistry and is at least partly the cause of depression after a miscarriage. An abortion is essentially an induced miscarriage so the body chemistry is very similar.

I've looked for stats, but they vary wildly, because it seems the only folks interested in publishing anything on this are the opposing parties, and I am suspicious of their slant.

Still looking.

[Cow Poke]

My understanding is that the sudden disruption of the normal hormonal process of gestation causes a significant change in brain chemistry and is at least partly the cause of depression after a miscarriage. An abortion is essentially an induced miscarriage so the body chemistry is very similar.

Wouldn't it be great if abortion were like all those prescription meds you see on TV? 13 seconds for the "sell" and 17 seconds for the disclaimers "consult your doctor, don't take this if you're allergic to it: may cause hypertension, gas, bloating, endometriosis, thoughts of suicide, depression, actual suicide, heart failure, abnormal bleeding, loss of self-esteem, dependency on alcohol, traumatic stress disorder, symptoms of PTSD...."

[carpedm9587]

I'm doing it Carpeienne style!

That would require you to have a mind...

[carpedm9587]

Compared to raising a human for decades and keeping younger humans from accidentally killing themselves due to having no survival instinct, being pregnant for nine months is an inconvenience. If it's a problem, she can give birth early. It's not recommended, but if her health is at risk it can be done. Preferably after 26 weeks, but there's a chance at 22 weeks gestation if the mother's life is in danger to still save both.

So if/when you are married, Christian, and if/when you are expecting a child, I invite you to tell your wife that her pregnancy is simply an "inconvenience."

Let me know how that goes for you...

[Cow Poke]

So if/when you are married, Christian, and if/when you are expecting a child, I invite you to tell your wife that her pregnancy is simply an "inconvenience."

Let me know how that goes for you...

Christianbookworm is very unlikely to have a wife any time soon. She's a she.

[carpedm9587]

So, you would agree that this should be presented to all women who are considering abortion, yes? It should be required that they acknowledge the risks, just like anybody who has surgery has to sign off on understanding the risks, complications, etc?

I have answered this already. All information related to a procedure should be made available to the person undergoing the procedure and all options for getting information should be presented (i.e., if you wish, we can do an ultrasound and you can see the current state of the fetus.").

And how do we know how many women (many / most) do not suffer any (yeah, I changed that word) serious post-abortion distress? Where would you get unbiased data? How willing would a woman be to admit, "yeah, I had an abortion, and now I regret it, and am suffering...." It seems the natural tendency would be simply to rationalize or justify, rather than 'confess'.

For example, here's a claim...



Naturally, Big Abortion would present a much less damaging study.

Big Abortion?

There was a reason why I said "many (most?)" in my post. The number vary depending on how they are sourced. I am always dubious of numbers that come from someone with a stake in the game. I tend to look for places where studies have been done from something/someone that at least looks to be reasonably impartial and has been peer reviewed. As a consequence, I tend to prefer studies that are government funded rather than funded by an obviously pro-life or pro-choice agency. If you look, you can find them.

This is a Dutch study whose methodology seemed sound to me.
This is another one that examined both those receiving and those being denied abortions. Again, the methodology seems reasonably sound, AFAICT.


Meanwhile, the paper you link cites the "Eliot Institute for Social Science Research." This is a name used by the AfterAbortion, anti-abortion group that based its study of a survey "randomly" sent to 5,000 women, but I am finding no information on their methodology, or a copy of the survey instrument. So their numbers are somewhat suspect to me. I would be equally suspicious of numbers coming from Planned Parenthood or NARAL. For example, this article follows a group of women post abortion and relates benefits cited, but the article is from "Family Planning Perspectives," which raises questions for me about its neutrality. The methodology seems sound, but the sample set was not random (as far as I can tell) and I cannot get my hands on the survey instruments.

Bottom line - this has been such a polarized issue for so long, getting truly neutral information is extremely difficult.

[carpedm9587]

Christianbookworm is very unlikely to have a wife any time soon. She's a she.

It's 2019, CP. Check out the progress made in same-sex marriages...

[Sparko]

It's 2019, CP. Check out the progress made in same-sex marriages...

Yeah just double down instead of going "oops"
That always works

[Cow Poke]

It's 2019, CP. Check out the progress made in same-sex marriages...

She's a conservative Christian, Carpe, note that I said "very unlikely".

[Cow Poke]

Yeah just double down instead of going "oops"
That always works

At first, I thought this was about Tassy's blunder that Southern Baptists didn't acknowledge their problem with slavery until 2009 --- ooops, he meant 1995 --- it was a typo!!!

[Sparko]

At first, I thought this was about Tassy's blunder that Southern Baptists didn't acknowledge their problem with slavery until 2009 --- ooops, he meant 1995 --- it was a typo!!!

maybe CBW should tell carp to "stay in his own lane" since he is a male who will never know what it is like to be pregnant.

[Christianbookworm]

So if/when you are married, Christian, and if/when you are expecting a child, I invite you to tell your wife that her pregnancy is simply an "inconvenience."

Let me know how that goes for you...

I'm not interested in romance or that thing humans do to reproduce. I have six adorable nieces. Who are an adorable handful. Even though I don't get to see them very often due to them being out of state currently.

[Christianbookworm]

maybe CBW should tell carp to "stay in his own lane" since he is a male who will never know what it is like to be pregnant.

Eh, I plan on staying single for life, so I won't actually get pregnant. I might not even be able to. Oh well! I get to mother everyone else's babies! And give them back!