Jesus had a tendency to introduce modifications or even outright contradictions of OT law when it needed a bit of tweaking (which I think Tekton pointed out). So - when he didn't speak in contradiction of OT law, I figure he was content to let it stand.
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostJesus had a tendency to introduce modifications or even outright contradictions of OT law when it needed a bit of tweaking (which I think Tekton pointed out). So - when he didn't speak in contradiction of OT law, I figure he was content to let it stand.
Just to be clear, this is a rhetorical question about the logic of your assumption. First, I don't do "what the bible means" discussions because I find them pointless. As history has shown, the right selection and omission of verses can be used to support/attack almost any position - and I don't accept the bible as an authority on pretty much anything. Second, I have very little doubt that Jesus would have been any less homophobic than the rest of the Jewish men (and women?) of that culture in that age - so I suspect if he had spoken out about homosexuality, he would have been against it.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostJesus had a tendency to introduce modifications or even outright contradictions of OT law when it needed a bit of tweaking (which I think Tekton pointed out). So - when he didn't speak in contradiction of OT law, I figure he was content to let it stand.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd many of us "Christians" call ourselves "New Testament Christians" because we are Christ followers, and we live under a whole new system, Praise God!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOut of curiosity - why not make the assumption that he believed the other things he put forward - such as "love one another" being the highest law would be interpreted to mean that he didn't think much of OT laws that undermined any form of love for one another - including proscriptions against homosexuality?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI always find it interesting that an eternal, unchanging, omniscient being seemed to have a need to create an "all new system" with the birth of Jesus of Nazareth...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostActually, it's an extension of the old system, but Jesus became the sacrifice once and for all, instead of "rolling over" the sins to the next year and waiting for the Day of Atonement. It's all part of that "It is Finished" thing Jesus said from the Cross.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI think he also said "father, why have you forsaken me?"The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYou've abandoned YAHWEH?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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OK, this part....
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostJust to be clear, this is a rhetorical question about the logic of your assumption. First, I don't do "what the bible means" discussions because I find them pointless.
As history has shown, the right selection and omission of verses can be used to support/attack almost any position - and I don't accept the bible as an authority on pretty much anything. Second, I have very little doubt that Jesus would have been any less homophobic than the rest of the Jewish men (and women?) of that culture in that age - so I suspect if he had spoken out about homosexuality, he would have been against it.
I've missed you, Carpe.
*not really - I'm kidding.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWell, there's the problem that we have the rest of the New Testament, not just the Gospels, and Paul (specifically) would have to be seen as countermanding these "highest laws". There are clear prohibitions about a number of other things in the New Testament that it wouldn't make sense to say, "oh, we can ignore those, because Jesus...."
As for the rest - you're (presumably) taking it from the perspective that "it's all god's word.". I take it as a historical document, recognizing that the later letters were written at least a couple decades after Jesus died, allowing plenty of time for communities to begin interpreting and amending what Jesus actually thought, and plenty of opportunities for charismatic preachers like Paul) to insert their own perspective. Indeed, we don't really have any direct record of what Jesus actually taught; what we have is the writings of the community that sprang up after his death many years after that death - so we are looking at Jesus' teachings through their eyes.
Presumably, you believe there is an all-powerful being that is speaking through all of that so it is all "the truth." Since I do not share a belief in such a being, I treat them as simple historical documents and hold them to the same standards I believe all historical documents ought to be held.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI always find it interesting that an eternal, unchanging, omniscient being seemed to have a need to create an "all new system" with the birth of Jesus of Nazareth...
This question is pre-mulled (and my answer could offend many). The Old Law came out of dickering/compromise. The New Law didn't - it's a from the top command (on a take it or leave it basis). Both Old Testament and New Testament records state that the Old Law was deficient (and in the NT, the OT law is deemed deficient on more than one count ... some of it deemed by God himself to be bad).1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostActually, it's an extension of the old system, but Jesus became the sacrifice once and for all, instead of "rolling over" the sins to the next year and waiting for the Day of Atonement. It's all part of that "It is Finished" thing Jesus said from the Cross.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat is a whole lot of imposing a theology on the text...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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