Trump's Christian supporters are unchristian

[JimL]

It is not meant to be a full equivalence. It's analogous part is to show that to know is not necessarily to cause. I believe God can allow us to freely choose and know what we will choose without that choice being forced. You seem to think God's knowing and being right about it somehow is forcing the choice. I dont believe it does. I don't see any reason the two elements of existence are necessarily related.

Again, correlation does not imply causation.

Well, you also can't explain why you believe god can eternally know your future and not be the cause. The knowledge isn't the cause, the knowledge is the evidence of the creator being the cause. You all seem to keep making that same mistake. If a thing is eternally known and is then created, then that which is created isn't free to change that which was eternally known about it. Basic logic! You guys are twisting your brains into pretzels trying to come up with something, but the eternal can't be changed.

[oxmixmudd]

Well, you also can't explain why you believe god can eternally know your future and not be the cause. The knowledge isn't the cause, the knowledge is the evidence of the creator being the cause. You all seem to keep making that same mistake. If a thing is eternally known and is then created, then that which is created isn't free to change that which was eternally known about it. Basic logic! You guys are twisting your brains into pretzels trying to come up with something, but the eternal can't be changed.

I have explained it, but you either don't understand it or just don't want to understand it.

OTOH, you are using circular reasoning to say free will can't exist if the future can't be changed. I think it is because you are making the mistake of thinking free will means unpredictable, as in some sort of random number generator. Free will means nothing is forcing me to do what I choose to do. It doesn't mean someone else - or God himself - can't know what choices I'll make of my own free will.

I think you are also making the mistake of conflating God's knowledge of the future with 'destiny'. Again, Destiny says my future is fixed and I can't change it. The key difference between Destiny and free will/foreknowledge is that in a 'destiny' paradigm, I can see the future, and I can't change it. Nothing I do to thwart it will make it come out any different. And in cultures that embrace it, it often leads to fatalism and a lack of will to make things better. In a free-will scenario, if I can see the future I can change it. But that doesn't mean God doesn't know what I'll do if I see the future. God can see that if I don't get a clue my future will look like X. But he can let me know it's going to look like X if I don't change it. And then I can decide to change it, and it will look like Y. That isn't destiny. That is God interacting with His creation. The fact God knows my positive or negative response to that knowledge of the future does not change the fact I have the power to choose my 'destiny' as it were, to change my future if I am only informed about what it will be if I continue as I am. And that is what faith in Christ does. Paul tells us in Roman 7 that apart from Christ we are bound in our sins. IOW, there is something controlling our destiny - sin. And apart from Christ nothing I do can change that. My ultimate destiny is fixed as it where. But IF we choose to follow Christ, we are free then to choose life, and now we have a whole new life that sits before us and a freedom to make our own destiny that eludes us when we are bound in sin. And that God is there with us, helping us become that new person, that better community, helping us find that better 'destiny'.

The infallibility/free will issue Roy and I discussed reasonably* highlights this difference in that If we have free will and we learn about the future in a way God doesn't know about so we can change it in a way God can't predict infallibility is lost. But that little exception - I have to know what it is w/o God knowing about it and act to change it in a way God didn't perceive - is what leaves free-will in the Game. We can have free will, and God can know the future infallibly.


Jim

*thanks Roy

[JimL]

I have explained it, but you either don't understand it or just don't want to understand it.

OTOH, you are using circular reasoning to say free will can't exist if the future can't be changed. I think it is because you are making the mistake of thinking free will means unpredictable, as in some sort of random number generator. Free will means nothing is forcing me to do what I choose to do. It doesn't mean someone else - or God himself - can't know what choices I'll make of my own free will.

I think you are also making the mistake of conflating God's knowledge of the future with 'destiny'. Again, Destiny says my future is fixed and I can't change it. The key difference between Destiny and free will/foreknowledge is that in a 'destiny' paradigm, I can see the future, and I can't change it. Nothing I do to thwart it will make it come out any different. And in cultures that embrace it, it often leads to fatalism and a lack of will to make things better. In a free-will scenario, if I can see the future I can change it. But that doesn't mean God doesn't know what I'll do if I see the future. God can see that if I don't get a clue my future will look like X. But he can let me know it's going to look like X if I don't change it. And then I can decide to change it, and it will look like Y. That isn't destiny. That is God interacting with His creation. The fact God knows my positive or negative response to that knowledge of the future does not change the fact I have the power to choose my 'destiny' as it were, to change my future if I am only informed about what it will be if I continue as I am. And that is what faith in Christ does. Paul tells us in Roman 7 that apart from Christ we are bound in our sins. IOW, there is something controlling our destiny - sin. And apart from Christ nothing I do can change that. My ultimate destiny is fixed as it where. But IF we choose to follow Christ, we are free then to choose life, and now we have a whole new life that sits before us and a freedom to make our own destiny that eludes us when we are bound in sin. And that God is there with us, helping us become that new person, that better community, helping us find that better 'destiny'.

The infallibility/free will issue Roy and I discussed reasonably* highlights this difference in that If we have free will and we learn about the future in a way God doesn't know about so we can change it in a way God can't predict infallibility is lost. But that little exception - I have to know what it is w/o God knowing about it and act to change it in a way God didn't perceive - is what leaves free-will in the Game. We can have free will, and God can know the future infallibly.


Jim

*thanks Roy

Again, the thing you are completely ignoring is that the foreknowledge we are talking about is eternal foreknowledge. If god is omniscient then his knowledge of your future is eternal, he knew it before he even created you. So, just please give me an explanation as to how, after you are created, you have any say concerning your future? Can you alter what was known about the future you prior to you even existing? Of course you can't. It's not even a complicated issue to follow. If it's eternal knowledge, and if it's unchanging, then so too is your future unchangeable by you once you come to be.

[Mountain Man]

If god is omniscient then his knowledge of your future is eternal, he knew it before he even created you. So, just please give me an explanation as to how, after you are created, you have any say concerning your future?

Already done, Jimmy.

P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary that I choose X.
P3: If it is necessary that I choose X then I have no freewill.
P4: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
C1: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being necessary that I choose X.
C2: Therefore, I have freewill.

Q.E.D.

[JimL]

Already done, Jimmy.

P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary that I choose X.
P3: If it is necessary that I choose X then I have no freewill.
P4: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
C1: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being necessary that I choose X.
C2: Therefore, I have freewill.

Q.E.D.

Hey dum dum, if god knows you will choose X in this world, then he would also know your choices in all possible worlds. Assuming more worlds doesn't change anything, eternal omniscience would foreknow them all.

[Mountain Man]

Hey dum dum, if god knows you will choose X in this world, then he would also know your choices in all possible worlds. Assuming more worlds doesn't change anything, eternal omniscience would foreknow them all.

You call me "dum dum" and then go on to demonstrate that you didn't understand the argument.

Hint: Your assertion doesn't refute any of the premises. Therefore, the argument stands.

[MaxVel]

Well, you also can't explain why you believe god can eternally know your future and not be the cause. The knowledge isn't the cause, the knowledge is the evidence of the creator being the cause. You all seem to keep making that same mistake. If a thing is eternally known and is then created, then that which is created isn't free to change that which was eternally known about it. Basic logic! You guys are twisting your brains into pretzels trying to come up with something, but the eternal can't be changed.

You keep re-asserting your position, and NOT addressing counter-arguments in any substantive way. At least here you've acknowledged that God's knowledge isn't the cause of our choices.

God infallibly knows what we will freely choose to do. That solves your problem. God is omniscient (knowing all the is possible to know) and we are free (being able to choose unconstrained)


God is only the 'cause' of our free choices in the sense that He creates the environment in which we make those choices. He doesn't 'cause' our choices in the sense of controlling us or constraining our freedom in any way apart from the constraints all humans are subject to by the nature of reality. We can't choose to sprout wings and fly like birds, for example.

[JimL]

You keep re-asserting your position, and NOT addressing counter-arguments in any substantive way.

Oh I've addressed the counter argument, not only in this thread, but I've been countering them for years. The psychological barriers that religion puts up against logic are, it seems, nearly impenetrable.

At least here you've acknowledged that God's knowledge isn't the cause of our choices.

At least? I've made that clear for years as well, Max. Just goes to show you are not paying attention. Eternal foreknowledge is not the cause, eternal foreknowledge is evidence of the cause, the possesser of eternal foreknowledge, of omniscience.

God infallibly knows what we will freely choose to do. That solves your problem. God is omniscient (knowing all the is possible to know) and we are free (being able to choose unconstrained)

That's what we call a belief, Max, a simple unsubstantiated assertion based on a simple belief, not a cogent, logical argument.

God is only the 'cause' of our free choices in the sense that He creates the environment in which we make those choices. He doesn't 'cause' our choices in the sense of controlling us or constraining our freedom in any way apart from the constraints all humans are subject to by the nature of reality. We can't choose to sprout wings and fly like birds, for example.

Again, not an argument, a belief. If you want to make an argument then refute the fact that omniscience, eternal knowledge, of the entire life of a created being, from birth to death, can be in any way changed by that created being.

[oxmixmudd]

Oh I've addressed the counter argument, not only in this thread, but I've been countering them for years. The psychological barriers that religion puts up against logic are, it seems, nearly impenetrable.


At least? I've made that clear for years as well, Max. Just goes to show you are not paying attention. Eternal foreknowledge is not the cause, eternal foreknowledge is evidence of the cause, the possesser of eternal foreknowledge, of omniscience.

That's what we call a belief, Max, a simple unsubstantiated assertion based on a simple belief, not a cogent, logical argument.


Again, not an argument, a belief. If you want to make an argument then refute the fact that omniscience, eternal knowledge, of the entire life of a created being, from birth to death, can be in any way changed by that created being.

Hi JimL.

We were able to establish that free-will can co-exist with foreknowledge if the free-will agent has no way to react to what is known about the future. Free-will is not a random number generator. We will react to circumstances, our feelings, life a certain way. God can know that, so He can know what we'll do. But we are still free and still choose freely.

Now, I understand that in one sense there isn't a lot of difference between 'the future is known by God and I have no free-will' and 'the future is known by God and I have free-will' if the timeline is fixed. Indeed, the same history unfolds in both. I live the same life in both. So I understand why you'd want to jump ahead and say that means we don't have free-will.


But they ARE different. In the fatalistic approach, God makes me be who I am. It's His fault if I'm bad. In the approach I suggest, that isn't the case. I am still making MY choices. And I am still absolutely responsible for them. Sure God knows about them - but He's not making me make those choices, and He's letting me make my own choices. If free-will exists, then I have every reason to try to change who I am, to try to make the world a better place, and to let God change me. Because those are real choices, and they have real meaning.

Looking at it from the positive and not the negative, what God knowing what my choices will be does is make it possible for Him to try to place me in circumstances that will allow me to become the best person I can become if I will choose to follow Him. Since He knows what we will do in every circumstance, then when we reach the end of our life we will find that God did in fact make sure we had every chance to become the best us we could become. Because we had opportunities and choices to do just that.

That is what "Those who He foreknew He predestined ..." means. It means God knew some circumstances would allow me, or you, or someone else to find Him. So He made sure those happened.

God made us yes. But he made us morally capable of choosing. And those choices are not controlled by Him. And we are responsible for them.

That is why it is not the same as the fatalistic conclusion, even though the history as we look at it from the end may well be fixed or the same.


Jim

[Tassman]

It is not meant to be a full equivalence. It's analogous part is to show that to know is not necessarily to cause. I believe God can allow us to freely choose and know what we will choose without that choice being forced. You seem to think God's knowing and being right about it somehow is forcing the choice.

[Mountain Man]

Alternatively, if we have freewill then it is inevitable that an omniscient God will eternally know what our choices will be. The question is whether or not it is necessary that we make those choices, and as I've shown, it's not necessary. Therefore, our freewill and God's omniscience are compatible.

[Tassman]

Alternatively, if we have freewill then it is inevitable that an omniscient God will eternally know what our choices will be. The question is whether or not it is necessary that we make those choices, and as I've shown, it's not necessary. Therefore, our freewill and God's omniscience are compatible.

It is more than just "necessary that we make those choices", it's inevitable that we will. Otherwise God does not eternally "know", which is incompatible with his omniscience'

[Mountain Man]

It is more than just "necessary that we make those choices", it's inevitable that we will. Otherwise God does not eternally "know", which is incompatible with his omniscience'

Nope.

P1: God foreknows that I will choose X.
P2: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary that I choose X.
P3: If it is necessary that I choose X then I have no freewill.
P4: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
C1: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being necessary that I choose X.
C2: Therefore, I have freewill.

[oxmixmudd]

Free will is the ability to choose what we wish to choose. If you agree Gods knowledge of what we choose is not determining the choice, then you are agreeing we have free will even though god knpws what we will choose.

Jim

[firstfloor]

99.99% of God-fearing is a charade.