In Democratic circles, anti-Semitism is becoming normal

[Cow Poke]

Myth, vision or an actual occurrence the night journey to Jerusalem is widely believed in Islamic tradition to have occurred...in much the same way Paul traveled in a vision to the third heaven. Both are best explained as a pious myth.

Except, of course, that Paul's journey is documented in our 'holy book', but no mention whatsoever of Muhammad in their "holy book" ever having been to Jerusalem, or Jerusalem even being named!

It is widely believed in Christian circles that Jesus said in the Gospels "the Lord loveth a cheerful giver" -- but they'd be wrong!

"It is widely believed" is not the same as "it's true!"

[Tassman]

Except, of course, that Paul's journey is documented in our 'holy book', but no mention whatsoever of Muhammad in their "holy book" ever having been to Jerusalem, or Jerusalem even being named!

The Night Journey: "Refers to the journey made by Muhammad from the Great Mosque in Mecca to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem on a winged horselike creature known as Buraq, followed by Muhammad's ascension into heaven. Briefly mentioned in the Quran ( 17:1 ) but known primarily through hadith. During the journey, Muhammad traveled with Gabriel to see everything in heaven and earth and then to the Temple in Jerusalem, where he met with Abraham , Moses , Jesus , and other prophets there and led them in prayer".

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/...opr/t125/e1752

So, whether or not this was a miracle as claimed by many Muslims, or simply a vision, Islam's association with Jerusalem is a long established Muslim tradition.

[Cow Poke]

The Night Journey...

What was it you said earlier? Was it... "yada yada yada"?

Your elevator doesn't have a sharp pencil.

[Tassman]

What was it you said earlier? Was it... "yada yada yada"?

interest in Jerusalem for the Muslims.

[rogue06]

The Night Journey: "Refers to the journey made by Muhammad from the Great Mosque in Mecca to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem on a winged horselike creature known as Buraq, followed by Muhammad's ascension into heaven. Briefly mentioned in the Quran ( 17:1 ) but known primarily through hadith. During the journey, Muhammad traveled with Gabriel to see everything in heaven and earth and then to the Temple in Jerusalem, where he met with Abraham , Moses , Jesus , and other prophets there and led them in prayer".

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/...opr/t125/e1752

So, whether or not this was a miracle as claimed by many Muslims, or simply a vision, Islam's association with Jerusalem is a long established Muslim tradition.

*SIGH*

Again, the entire notion that this Night Journey was to Jerusalem has been pounded into a fine pink mist.

[Tassman]

*SIGH*

Again, the entire notion that this Night Journey was to Jerusalem has been pounded into a fine pink mist.

It does not have to to be literally true to have entered into the faith mythology of Islam as a key belief. Since when is religion logical or fact-based?

According to the Quran Muhammad traveled on the steed Buraq to "the farthest mosque, traditionally Muslims identify this "mosque" as a location in the physical world, the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem.

https://www.islamicity.org/5841/the-night-journey/

"Praise be to Allah Who enabled His slave, Muhammad, to make the journey at night from Masjid al-Haram in Makkah to Masjid al-Aqsa in Jerusalem, which is surrounded a blessed land.] This journey is also confirmed in the sahih hadith. As such, there is scholarly consensus (ijma^) Prophet Muhammad journeyed in body and soul the night of al-Isra' from Masjid al-Haram in Makkah to Masjid al-Aqsain Jerusalem. Moreover, these scholars indicated the person who denies al-Isra' is a blasphemer for belying the explicit text of the Qur'an".

http://www.sunna.info/Lessons/islam_365.html

[Cow Poke]

*SIGH*

Again, the entire notion that this Night Journey was to Jerusalem has been pounded into a fine pink mist.

The boy suffers under the delusion that if he keeps repeating it over and over and over, it might eventually come true. Hes even clicking his heels three times while repeating the mantra!

[Cow Poke]

It does not have to to be literally true...

Its not even "gee golly whiskers I WISH it were" true. And simply repeating the same false information over and over and over doesn't make it even CLOSE to true.

[Sparko]

The Night Journey: "Refers to the journey made by Muhammad from the Great Mosque in Mecca to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem on a winged horselike creature known as Buraq, followed by Muhammad's ascension into heaven. Briefly mentioned in the Quran ( 17:1 ) but known primarily through hadith. During the journey, Muhammad traveled with Gabriel to see everything in heaven and earth and then to the Temple in Jerusalem, where he met with Abraham , Moses , Jesus , and other prophets there and led them in prayer".

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/...opr/t125/e1752

So, whether or not this was a miracle as claimed by many Muslims, or simply a vision, Islam's association with Jerusalem is a long established Muslim tradition.

Surah 17:1
1. Glory to Him who journeyed His servant by night, from the Sacred Mosque, to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We have blessed, in order to show him of Our wonders. He is the Listener, the Beholder.

I see no mention of any flying horses or Buraqs or Jerusalem.

[rogue06]

It does not have to to be literally true to have entered into the faith mythology of Islam as a key belief.

As also has been pointed out it wasn't until considerably later that Jerusalem started to be identified as al-aqsa and there are numerous reasons why it couldn't be al-aqsa. Moreover when Jerusalem was retaken from the Muslims during the first Crusade the reaction wasn't "we need to get the holy city of Jerusalem back" but rather "we need to kick the infidels out of Muslim lands." It wasn't until Saladin that Jerusalem itself became a goal.

[rogue06]

The boy suffers under the delusion that if he keeps repeating it over and over and over, it might eventually come true. Hes even clicking his heels three times while repeating the mantra!

The NAMBLA thread all over again.

[Leonhard]

I don't know if I'll ever agree that the creation of the State of Israel was ever a good idea, but it has been done, and Israel has defended its borders through several injust wars waged against it. Any criticism made against the actions of Israel can't be made in a way that applies a special standard to them that other countries don't follow. And criticisms against Israel should be done in a way that's aware of the centuries long antisemitism against the Jews.

So I take a lot of distance from what JimL and Starlight have said. It is especially wrong to describe what Israel has as an Apartheid system.

As for Tassman's claims about muslims, all that matters to me is that most muslims believe the Dome of the Rock to be important to them. This is respected, and any notion that the Temple should be rebuilt there I don't take seriously even slightly.

I do believe Israel can be criticised, like all nations can be critised, when human rights are being violated. But it should be done in that matter, with specific reference to those events. Doing that is not antisemitic, and if anyone reads Israeli newspapers you'll find such criticisms made in an appropriate way.

I won't engage in criticisms of Israel's actions here though. Its a long, messy and complicated affair that I don't know nearly enough about to wade into.

[rogue06]

I don't know if I'll ever agree that the creation of the State of Israel was ever a good idea, but it has been done, and Israel has defended its borders through several injust wars waged against it. Any criticism made against the actions of Israel can't be made in a way that applies a special standard to them that other countries don't follow. And criticisms against Israel should be done in a way that's aware of the centuries long antisemitism against the Jews.

So I take a lot of distance from what JimL and Starlight have said. It is especially wrong to describe what Israel has as an Apartheid system.

As for Tassman's claims about muslims, all that matters to me is that most muslims believe the Dome of the Rock to be important to them. This is respected, and any notion that the Temple should be rebuilt there I don't take seriously even slightly.

I do believe Israel can be criticised, like all nations can be critised, when human rights are being violated. But it should be done in that matter, with specific reference to those events. Doing that is not antisemitic, and if anyone reads Israeli newspapers you'll find such criticisms made in an appropriate way.

I won't engage in criticisms of Israel's actions here though. Its a long, messy and complicated affair that I don't know nearly enough about to wade into.

I don't think that anyone ever disagreed that the Dome of the Rock is important to Muslims.

[Cow Poke]

The NAMBLA thread all over again.

But, at least this time he hasn't thrown a homosexual under the bus in his confusion.

[Leonhard]

I don't think that anyone ever disagreed that the Dome of the Rock is important to Muslims.

Its just immaterial to me whether Tassman is right or not about the Muslims beliefs, or whether the Muslims are right or not to consider Al-aqsa special, or the point where Muhammed visited Heaven. Whether any of that is true or not wouldn't change the importance the Dome of the Rock holds for Muslims across the world. And I'm glad Israel had the wisdom to preserve it.

If anything that show how civilized Israel can be and how well functioning and calm headed they have the capacity to act.