Time To Smear Kavanaugh's Good Name...

[Mountain Man]

Are you talking about what his accuser has said happened or the other acts you are trying to raise to the level of harassment? If the latter, your choice of words is inaccurate.

A kiss on the back of the head simply is not 'forcibly kissing', and hands on the shoulders is not 'groping'. The actions of Joe Biden you focus on do not rise to the level of harassment. They might be annoying, they might even make a person uncomfortable. But they are not groping, they are not even likely sexual in nature. And the proper response in a case like that is simply to let the person know you are not comfortable with it and let that be the end of it. Especially in our culture as it was a decade or more ago.

Today with all the talk about it and me too. It is far less excusable as a person that is overly affectionate and ignorant of the possible fact they are making another person uncomfortable. And I'm sure Biden has been made aware he cant express hiis natural kindness in that way anymore.

"Now be honest for a moment, if you saw a man doing that to your wife, would you just stand there and let him carry on? And if your wife later told how uncomfortable it made her feel, would you dismiss her concerns and tell her that the guy was just being affectionate [and that it's her fault for not saying something]?"

Now let's look at the definition of sexual assault again:

Sexual assault refers to an assault of a sexual nature on another person. It can include a wide range of unwanted sexual contact such as rape, forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration, forced sexual intercourse, inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child molestation ,exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls torture of a victim in a sexual manner etc. The actor causes submission of the victim by means that is reasonably calculated to cause submission against the victim's will. Definitions of offences are primarily governed by state criminal laws, which vary by state. It is generally a felony.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/

Now let's compare that to what the New York Times discovered:

Screenshot_20200502_164509.jpg

Hmmmm!

Now to most normal people, this...

Creepy-Joe-Biden-Groping-The-Hill-Reporter-Amie-Parnes-600x440.jpg

...is NOT okay, and I have a very hard time believing that you wouldn't have words with any man who touched your wife like that.

And the proper response in a case like that is simply to let the person know you are not comfortable with it and let that be the end of it.

No, Jim, it is NOT and SHOULD NOT be the victim's responsibility to tell a sexual predator to back off. A man should never put a woman in that situation in the first place!

[oxmixmudd]

"Now be honest for a moment, if you saw a man doing that to your wife, would you just stand there and let him carry on? And if your wife later told how uncomfortable it made her feel, would you dismiss her concerns and tell her that the guy was just being affectionate [and that it's her fault for not saying something]?"

Now let's look at the definition of sexual assault again:

Sexual assault refers to an assault of a sexual nature on another person. It can include a wide range of unwanted sexual contact such as rape, forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration, forced sexual intercourse, inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child molestation ,exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls torture of a victim in a sexual manner etc. The actor causes submission of the victim by means that is reasonably calculated to cause submission against the victim's will. Definitions of offences are primarily governed by state criminal laws, which vary by state. It is generally a felony.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-assault/

Now let's compare that to what the New York Times discovered:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44425[/ATTACH]

Hmmmm!

Now to most normal people, this...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44426[/ATTACH]

...is NOT okay, and I have a very hard time believing that you wouldn't have words with any man who touched your wife like that.


No, Jim, it is NOT and SHOULD NOT be the victim's responsibility to tell a sexual predator to back off. A man should never put a woman in that situation in the first place!

I see nothing that is necessarily inappropriate in that photo, nothing that is necessarily sexual. That you see no possiblity of anything but touching of a sexual nature there is more an indication of the sickness and perversion that has consumed our culture and our minds more than anything else.

And I would really like to see an apology from you for how you treated Blasey Ford during the Kavanaugh hearings. Because for you to post this, and have posted what you did then about her, is nothing but rank hypocrisy of the deepest nature.

[Mountain Man]

I see nothing that is necessarily inappropriate in that photo, nothing that is necessarily sexual.

So if a man were to come up behind your wife and touch her like that, you would be okay with it? And you would be dismissive if she told you that it made her feel uncomfortable? Really?

In that case, I feel sorry for your wife.

[oxmixmudd]

So if a man were to come up behind your wife and touch her like that, you would be okay with it? And you would be dismissive if she told you that it made her feel uncomfortable? Really?

In that case, I feel sorry for your wife.

You have no idea what you are talking about MM. And as usual, you go for the cheap shot, implying I don't properly care for or protect my wife.

In reality it depends on who it was MM, What our relationship is with him, and her comfort level is with him. And it depends on the circumstances. Some random stranger walking up behind her - no, that would be weird and threatening. But someone I knew and who represented a grandfatherly figure to us in a posed picture? no. Now if he was doing more that just resting he hands there during the photo op waiting for the flash, that would be a problem. But a still photo that is posed - no. That is what I mean by 'necessarily'. There are contexts where it could be a problem. And contexts where it simply isn't.

[Mountain Man]

In reality it depends on who it was MM, What our relationship is with him, and her comfort level is with him. And it depends on the circumstances. Some random stranger walking up behind her - no, that would be weird and threatening. But someone I knew and who represented a grandfatherly figure to us in a posed picture? no. Now if he was doing more that just resting he hands there during the photo op waiting for the flash, that would be a problem. But a still photo that is posed - no. That is what I mean by 'necessarily'. There are contexts that could be a problem. And contexts it simply isn't.

It's frankly disturbing that you think there is any social context in which it is acceptable for a man to touch another man's wife in that manner.

This reminds me of a time I was at a company Christmas party, and my news director approached my wife whom he was meeting for the first time and tried to hug her without asking. She shoved him back and glared at him. He looked at me for support, and I simply smiled and said, "I suggest you not try that again."

[DivineOb]

So if a man were to come up behind your wife and touch her like that, you would be okay with it? And you would be dismissive if she told you that it made her feel uncomfortable? Really?

In that case, I feel sorry for your wife.

*snicker*

[Mountain Man]

*snicker*

You think groping another man's wife is a laughing matter?

[DivineOb]

You think groping another man's wife is a laughing matter?

That's not the funny part :).

[Mountain Man]

That's not the funny part :).

Then what is?

[oxmixmudd]

It's frankly disturbing that you think there is any social context in which it is acceptable for a man to touch another man's wife in that manner.

That would be your problem MM. It was a posed picture as best I can tell.

This reminds me of a time I was at a company Christmas party, and my news director approached my wife whom he was meeting for the first time and tried to hug her without asking. She shoved him back and glared at him. He looked at me for support, and I simply smiled and said, "I suggest you not try that again."

That would also be your problem MM. I'm a musician and an artist. In those cultures hugs are common regardless of official relationship. I also have attended a lot of Charismatic Churches and fellowships where hugs are also spontaneous and common, even among new acquaintances. Such things in those environments simply do not mean anything sexual. They mean we have a lot of genuine affection for each other.

I will admit the current #metoo has put a strain on some of that. As I said, In the current environment, I never take a situation for granted anymore, even in those sorts of environments.

But all your comments reflect is a very limited understanding of or tolerance for other cultures and norms.

[Mountain Man]

I'm a musian and an artist. In those cultures hugs are common regardless of official relationship.

A hug is one thing. Slinking up behind another man's wife and placing your hands on her torso right below her breasts is something else entirely. I'm somewhat but not entirely surprised that you consider it acceptable behavior.

"Did you see how that man touched me?"
"Yes."
"Then why didn't you say something!"
"Ah, he was just being friendly, and besides, you two were posing for a picture."
"What difference does that make! It made me feel uncomfortable."
"That would be your problem, my dear. Now what are you going to make me for dinner?"

[oxmixmudd]

A hug is one thing. Slinking up behind another man's wife and placing your hands on her torso right below her breasts is something else entirely. I'm somewhat but not entirely surprised that you consider it acceptable behavior.

What evidence do you have that tells you that Biden 'slinked up behind her'? What evidence do you have if that is what he did it was not simply a joke, something done in good fun simply to startle her and produce the expression seen in the photo? There are so many non-threatening, non sexually oriented possibilities that for you to assume he was actually trying to 'cop a feel' as it were is - again - evidence of who you are, not who he is.

"Did you see how that man touched me?"
"Yes."
"Then why didn't you say something!"
"Ah, he was just being friendly, and besides, you two were posing for a picture."
"What difference does that make! It made me feel uncomfortable."
"That would be your problem, my dear. Now what are you going to make me for dinner?"

Again - you go for the cheap shots. It's just who you are I suppose. For those immersed in TWEB group think that would be inclined to accept MM's disparaging remarks, if something happened anywhere that actually made my wife feel uncomfortable, I'd take her word for it and act on it.

The difference, MM, is that I nor my wife would likely feel threatened by such a joke unless it had some other element to it beyond what I've described at face value. As I said, I and my wife have interacted and many environments where people are just friendly and expressive, that is the culture, and there is nothing sexual about it. And there is nothing wrong with me or her that such environments do not feel threatening. The problem is more in your head where apparently you've been raised in such a repressive atmosphere that every touch, every expression of affection MUST be sexual in nature, and so you feel threatened by them.

Just so you know, I would respect that without needing to be told. Different people have different personal space requirements and different reactions to affection. The problem is not my inability to understand where you hail from, the problem is your inability to understand there are other ways to be, and that touch itself is not necessarily sexual, and that it is entirely likely that - assuming Joe Biden does not have nasty secrets to hide - he comes from a background that is far more free in expressing affection than the one you hail from. In fact, in cultures where hugs, touching, warm embraces are common, often people are healthier and happier.

It's not that it is impossible Joe Biden has a problem. It's that there are plenty of reasons not to jump to the conclusion he has a problem just because he is affectionate with more than just immediate family.

[Mountain Man]

What evidence do you have if that is what he did it was not simply a joke, something done in good fun simply to startle her and produce the expression seen in the photo?

You think a man touching someone other than his wife in that manner is a "joke" and "in good fun"?

The more you try to defend Biden, the more you damn yourself.

...apparently you've been raised in such a repressive atmosphere that every touch, every expression of affection MUST be sexual in nature, and so you feel threatened by them.

What is it with you and these straw men?

It's not "every touch, every expression of affection" that I have a problem with. But there are certain parts of a person's body where touching them conveys a heightened sense of intimacy. The front upper part of a woman's torso is certainly one of those areas, and regardless of how desperate you are to defend Biden, I really doubt you would be okay with another man touching your wife like that.

[oxmixmudd]

You think a man touching someone other than his wife in that manner is a "joke" and "in good fun"?

The more you try to defend Biden, the more you damn yourself.


What is it with you and these straw men?

It's not "every touch, every expression of affection" that I have a problem with. But there are certain parts of a person's body where touching them conveys a heightened sense of intimacy. The front upper part of woman's torso is certainly one of those areas, and regardless of how desperate you are to defend Biden, I really doubt you would be okay with another man touching your wife like that.

MM - I'm sorry you can't comprehend of a situation where what Biden was doing in that photo could possibly be nothing more than a joke without sexual innuendo. But that is your issue, not mine. And it is sad you must try to turn where I hail from into something 'damning', but again, that really is your issue - not mine. See - whereas I can express the simple fact I can accept where you hail from and respect it (e.g. I'd defend your right to ask a fellow playing that joke on your wife not to do it again), for you, where I hail from MUST necessarily be wrong, broken, 'damning'.

That says a lot all by itself.

[Mountain Man]

MM - I'm sorry you can't comprehend of a situation where what Biden was doing in that photo could possibly be nothing more than a joke without sexual innuendo.

Right... a "joke". It would have been even better if ol' Joe went all the way and grabbed her breasts, right? Imagine the expression she would have made then! I'm laughing just thinking about it.

I can tell you that if any other man had attempted that "joke" on my wife, he would have been lucky to walk away without a swollen lip and a black eye. And not from me! Some of the stories my wife told me about how she would fend off "affectionate" guys on dates are hilarious. She was VERY good with her elbows, even if the guy approached her behind!

And if you're wondering, my wife and I were anything but prudish in our married life.