Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[carpedm9587]

I think we all do that... "To be perfectly honest...." "To tell you the truth...." "Let me be honest...."

There is now way you can prove "all" - what have I told you about superlatives, you Trump-lover you...

[Cow Poke]

There is now way you can prove "all" - what have I told you about superlatives, you Trump-lover you...

You said "now way" when you were lecturing me!

[Sparko]

Government is people. People have agendas. I am not claiming they ARE spun, but I am, as I said, a bit dubious.



You are free to do so, LJ, and I di dnot ask you to do my homework for me. When I have time, I'll see if I can ferret out the issue. Until I do, I take the numbers with a grain of salt. As I mentioned to Sparko, anyone with an eye for data is going to look at outliers carefully. It can be an outlier because it is truly an outlier, but it can be an outlier because there is something wrong with the data or the methodology.



Actually, that's an excellent point, and one I had not considered. It makes sense. On the strength of that argument, I'd have to revise my previous position. Deport after jail time. I'd add one proviso: if they illegally return after deportation and are again apprehended, they repeat their jail time as if it was never done - with no criminal trial (just the immigration hearing to establish their illegal presence). Just their illegal presence in the U.S. triggers the sentence.

And what about their children while they are serving jail time?

[carpedm9587]

And what about their children while they are serving jail time?

Throughout the U.S., children see parents jailed, Sparko. We're not going to give people a pass on criminal activity just because they have children. We'll do the best we can to make sure the children are cared for. There is also some question whether someone who engages in criminal activity is fit to BE a parent.

This discussion is about people who commit a crime within the U.S. other than merely crossing the border. It is a separate issue from families coming into the U.S. and being intentionally separated when there are viable alternatives.


ETA: but you do raise an I have long had with the U.S. penal system. The U.S. jails more of its population (as a percentage) than any other country. Some of it is the specious "war on drugs" where users are treated with the same legal consequences as dealers. And we have turned our jails over to the business sector, who make money on people in jail and have no motivation to rehabilitate - which has push recidivism to new highs. The entire penal system needs a significant overhaul. I'm sure there are a lot of families needlessly broken by the existing system.

[Sparko]

Throughout the U.S., children see parents jailed, Sparko. We're not going to give people a pass on criminal activity just because they have children. We'll do the best we can to make sure the children are cared for. There is also some question whether someone who engages in criminal activity is fit to BE a parent.

This discussion is about people who commit a crime within the U.S. other than merely crossing the border. It is a separate issue from families coming into the U.S. and being intentionally separated when there are viable alternatives.

So you are fine with separating families then?

[Cow Poke]

Throughout the U.S., children see parents jailed, Sparko.

But those kids have homes here, or extended family, or somewhere to go.

[carpedm9587]

But those kids have homes here, or extended family, or somewhere to go.

Generally, yes. There are exceptions, of course, which is where social services comes in.

[carpedm9587]

So you are fine with separating families then?

There are times when separating families is necessary. I don't do absolutes, Sparko. The situation at the border is not necessary - which is the injustice. When it is necessary, it is necessary. In our community, one family has proven to be a baby factory. The mother likes to be pregnant, and has now had 18 kids and is pregnant for the 19th. But she doesn't like to be a mother, so the kids are neglected and abused. The state has stepped in to protect the kids and find foster homes for them. They hope to reunite the family, but it's a mess. Few people will take 15 kids (3 are now 18+), the older kids are in no position to care for such a large group, and returning them to their home just puts the kids back in the middle of an abusive situation.

Sometimes...separating families is a good - unfortunately...

[Cow Poke]

Generally, yes. There are exceptions, of course, which is where social services comes in.

And I almost added "or other support system".

[Cow Poke]

There are times when separating families is necessary. I don't do absolutes, Sparko. The situation at the border is not necessary - which is the injustice. When it is necessary, it is necessary. In our community, one family has proven to be a baby factory. The mother likes to be pregnant, and has now had 18 kids and is pregnant for the 19th. But she doesn't like to be a mother, so the kids are neglected and abused. The state has stepped in to protect the kids and find foster homes for them. They hope to reunite the family, but it's a mess. Few people will take 15 kids (3 are now 18+), the older kids are in no position to care for such a large group, and returning them to their home just puts the kids back in the middle of an abusive situation.

Sometimes...separating families is a good - unfortunately...

Wait, you said the population of your town is 27, and this one woman represents....

[Sparko]

There are times when separating families is necessary. I don't do absolutes, Sparko. The situation at the border is not necessary - which is the injustice. When it is necessary, it is necessary. In our community, one family has proven to be a baby factory. The mother likes to be pregnant, and has now had 18 kids and is pregnant for the 19th. But she doesn't like to be a mother, so the kids are neglected and abused. The state has stepped in to protect the kids and find foster homes for them. They hope to reunite the family, but it's a mess. Few people will take 15 kids (3 are now 18+), the older kids are in no position to care for such a large group, and returning them to their home just puts the kids back in the middle of an abusive situation.

Sometimes...separating families is a good - unfortunately...

Crossing the border illegally IS a crime though Carp. That is why they are called ILLEGAL aliens. Yet you have a problem then with separating the children or putting them in jail. And once they are over here, they don't have driver's licenses and they are caught all the time without them, another crime, or working without paying taxes or paying taxes under false social security numbers, more crimes. I don't see how someone can come into this country illegally and NOT continue to commit crimes once across the border.

[Littlejoe]

Government is people. People have agendas. I am not claiming they ARE spun, but I am, as I said, a bit dubious.



You are free to do so, LJ, and I di dnot ask you to do my homework for me. When I have time, I'll see if I can ferret out the issue. Until I do, I take the numbers with a grain of salt. As I mentioned to Sparko, anyone with an eye for data is going to look at outliers carefully. It can be an outlier because it is truly an outlier, but it can be an outlier because there is something wrong with the data or the methodology.

Ok, fair enough!

Actually, that's an excellent point, and one I had not considered. It makes sense. On the strength of that argument, I'd have to revise my previous position. Deport after jail time. I'd add one proviso: if they illegally return after deportation and are again apprehended, they repeat their jail time as if it was never done - with no criminal trial (just the immigration hearing to establish their illegal presence). Just their illegal presence in the U.S. triggers the sentence.

Hey! At least we agree on something!

[carpedm9587]

Ok, fair enough!

Hey! At least we agree on something!

I would venture to guess that we agree on many things. Perhaps even most things. This site (or at least the fora I frequent) tends to bring out the differences.

[carpedm9587]

And I almost added "or other support system".

You mean churches? Nah... they just poison young minds with ancient myths!

[carpedm9587]

Crossing the border illegally IS a crime though Carp. That is why they are called ILLEGAL aliens.

Yes it is. Not all "crimes," however, are equal and require equal treatment. And I use the term "immigrants." "Aliens" is just a word designed to make them sound even more "other," so we can be justified in pretty much anything we think or do. If that's PC of me, so be it.

Yet you have a problem then with separating the children or putting them in jail.

Yes, I do - to both.

And once they are over here, they don't have driver's licenses and they are caught all the time without them, another crime, or working without paying taxes or paying taxes under false social security numbers, more crimes. I don't see how someone can come into this country illegally and NOT continue to commit crimes once across the border.

It depends on the circumstances. You're attempting to paint with a broad brush, and you continue to argue as if I believe we should be letting illegal immigrants flood into our country and do whatever they want. When you actually know and can accurately reflect my actual immigration position, I'll be able to actually give you some meaningful responses. Until then - keep shadow boxing.

ETA: That was a lot of "actuals"