Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[carpedm9587]

I never HatedObama

What the sam thunder are you even talking about?

OK, I will accept that I may be confusing you with other people, and I don't have the time/inclination to go looking. But I am reasonably sure I have seen several anti-Obama posts from you in response to discussions about Trump, and have seen you "pile on" Obama as badly as many here "pile on" Trump.

But I may be wrong. If you say you have not, I will accept that and apologize.

[carpedm9587]

This is about me, isn't it?

It's always about you...

[Cow Poke]

OK, I will accept that I may be confusing you with other people, and I don't have the time/inclination to go looking. But I am reasonably sure I have seen several anti-Obama posts from you in response to discussions about Trump, and have seen you "pile on" Obama as badly as many here "pile on" Trump.

But I may be wrong. If you say you have not, I will accept that and apologize.

I don't think you'll find a single post from me that's anywhere near the hate crap these leftist loonies are launching on Trump, even being incapable of spelling his last name correctly, and attacking individuals for having voted for Trump, even though it was clear it was a "lesser of two evils" (or "evil of two lessers) situation.

[carpedm9587]

I don't think you'll find a single post from me that's anywhere near the hate crap these leftist loonies are launching on Trump, even being incapable of spelling his last name correctly, and attacking individuals for having voted for Trump, even though it was clear it was a "lesser of two evils" (or "evil of two lessers) situation.

Then I apologize for the insinuation. I was clearly crossing circuits and confusing you with posts from others. After a while, it's all a bit of a blur...

[Cow Poke]

Then I apologize for the insinuation. I was clearly crossing circuits and confusing you with posts from others. After a while, it's all a bit of a blur...

Understood... and I readily confess to poking fun at Obama -- "the One", and all that... but this level of hate and rancor from the left is something I've never seen before. Seriously, there are a couple of posters here, in particular, who pretty much act just like they accuse Trump of acting --- kinda the old "you become what you hate" thing.

[Sparko]

Really, Sparko? A reality TV show? Like you don't think they cherry pick the most sensational stories to keep eyeballs glued? Reality TV is partly responsible for the mess we're in now. Let's raise our sights a bit...

exactly what I thought you would say. You always demand evidence and then find a way to dismiss it. You took what Littlejoe gave you and dismiss it because the numbers don't agree with anything you have heard before. So away they go! Don't count.

You have not even watched the videos and you already dismiss them.

This is why I find your constant dismissals of "examples" and demands for evidence to be disingenuous. They are nothing but a method for you to handwave away any argument you don't agree with. A debate tactic.

[carpedm9587]

Understood... and I readily confess to poking fun at Obama -- "the One", and all that... but this level of hate and rancor from the left is something I've never seen before. Seriously, there are a couple of posters here, in particular, who pretty much act just like they accuse Trump of acting --- kinda the old "you become what you hate" thing.

To be honest, CP, that has been my observation about the right with both Clinton and Obama. The level of hatred and vitriol is off the map, and there is really not a great deal of justification for it, IMO. Yes, they have policies that conservatives disagree with. But neither did anything near what Trump has done, though I do think Clinton was also a politically flawed individual. The political tool of the right, for a long time, has been "hate" and "fear." The political tool of the left has largely been ridicule. Given how effective "hate" and "fear" have been for the right, it is no surprise to me that the left is adopting it. As much as I disagreed with Bush's politics, he at least attempted to ratchet back the growing hatred and fear of Muslims in the U.S., calling on us not to fall into the trap of "group hate" as we did with the Japanese in the 1940s. Trump just taps that hatred, feeds it, and leverages it for political gain.

You know I think Trump is a vile man. I also disagree with some of his policies, and most of his methods. I'm not sure I would go so far as to say I "hate" him, but I do loathe his behavior and all of the "new normal" he has brought to our political system. Being a troll is now a valid political tool. I find it sad.

[carpedm9587]

exactly what I thought you would say. You always demand evidence and then find a way to dismiss it. You took what Littlejoe gave you and dismiss it because the numbers don't agree with anything you have heard before. So away they go! Don't count.

If you read my posts a bit more carefully, Sparko, what I said was that I was "dubious." I did not say the numbers were wrong. But my radar will always go up when someone provides a set of numbers that do not align with all the rest of the numbers. Anyone with one iota of dedication to "evidence" would do the same. We call them "outliers." For example, Rasmussen is a polling outlier. Their polls are always 4-10 points to the right of almost all other polls. When an outlier presents, a prudent person asks why.

You have not even watched the videos and you already dismiss them.

What makes you think I have not seen Border Wars?"

This is why I find your constant dismissals of "examples" and demands for evidence to be disingenuous. They are nothing but a method for you to handwave away any argument you don't agree with. A debate tactic.

Your opinion is noted...

[Cow Poke]

To be honest, CP....

You haven't been up til now?

[Sparko]

If you read my posts a bit more carefully, Sparko, what I said was that I was "dubious." I did not say the numbers were wrong. But my radar will always go up when someone provides a set of numbers that do not align with all the rest of the numbers. Anyone with one iota of dedication to "evidence" would do the same. We call them "outliers." For example, Rasmussen is a polling outlier. Their polls are always 4-10 points to the right of almost all other polls. When an outlier presents, a prudent person asks why.

That is called "rationalization"

What makes you think I have not seen Border Wars?"

Have you?

Your opinion is noted...

Another dismissal. As usual.

[Littlejoe]

No - I looked, and read. I presume illegal immigration is federal. But I remain dubious. The numbers just don't align with anything else I've seen from any other state, or at the federal level. Texas is a very conservative state with a strong anti-immigrant agenda. Government can (and does) "spin" too. So I cannot show you that the numbers are wrong, but I remain fairly dubious. I'd want to see some form of independent corroboration, some sort of parity with other (especially border) states, or some explanation for why the numbers are so inflated. "Why is Texas so different," is the question I keep hearing in my head.

Why do you think the DPS would "spin" numbers? If official government numbers don't satisfy you, then you are just moving goal posts at this point. You can remain dubious, but I'm not doing your homework for you. If you disagree with the official numbers, then of course, it's up to you to dispute them. I believe the numbers.

Why would we pay money to house and feed someone who has forfeited their right to be in our country?

Because as soon as you set them free at the border, they turn around and head back across. The detention centers feed them and give them medical attention. If they go to prison, when they are released they may think twice before heading back across the border. There has to be some deterrent. Just setting them back across the border is no deterrent.

[carpedm9587]

Why do you think the DPS would "spin" numbers?

Government is people. People have agendas. I am not claiming they ARE spun, but I am, as I said, a bit dubious.

If official government numbers don't satisfy you, then you are just moving goal posts at this point. You can remain dubious, but I'm not doing your homework for you. If you disagree with the official numbers, then of course, it's up to you to dispute them. I believe the numbers.

You are free to do so, LJ, and I di dnot ask you to do my homework for me. When I have time, I'll see if I can ferret out the issue. Until I do, I take the numbers with a grain of salt. As I mentioned to Sparko, anyone with an eye for data is going to look at outliers carefully. It can be an outlier because it is truly an outlier, but it can be an outlier because there is something wrong with the data or the methodology.

Because as soon as you set them free at the border, they turn around and head back across. The detention centers feed them and give them medical attention. If they go to prison, when they are released they may think twice before heading back across the border. There has to be some deterrent. Just setting them back across the border is no deterrent.

Actually, that's an excellent point, and one I had not considered. It makes sense. On the strength of that argument, I'd have to revise my previous position. Deport after jail time. I'd add one proviso: if they illegally return after deportation and are again apprehended, they repeat their jail time as if it was never done - with no criminal trial (just the immigration hearing to establish their illegal presence). Just their illegal presence in the U.S. triggers the sentence.

[carpedm9587]

You haven't been up til now?

Good point. I have to stop using that expression.

[Cow Poke]

Good point. I have to stop using that expression.

I think we all do that... "To be perfectly honest...." "To tell you the truth...." "Let me be honest...."

[carpedm9587]

That is called "rationalization"

It's called prudence. I would (and do) do it with ANY data set.

Have you?

Yes, though I have to admit I was dragged into it kicking and screaming. We periodically had "family TV night" and the show was one my son liked. Reality TV was never all that attractive to me.

Another dismissal. As usual.

I cannot do much more than acknowledge your opinion, Sparko. It's wrong - but you're not going to accept that and I'm not going to waste time arguing with you about it. You've made your views on my posts and ethics fairly clear. Frankly, I cannot for the life of me figure out why you keep conversing with me. You seem to find the entire experience unpleasant. Personally, I don't keep doing elective things I find unpleasant or pointless. Life's too short.