Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[carpedm9587]

I don't know how I missed this response, but I did.

The fact is that we don't know. "If it bleeds it leads". There is so much hype about this, and nobody is going to report the "good" cases, because they're not news. I prefer not to get worked up all in a dither over what could be quite sensationalist 'journalism'.

This is the most recent breakdown I have seen. We also have a judge that apparently felt a need to order the government to stop medicating immigrant children without proper medical review. I could continue, but I have to admit, CP, that you have to be straining your head (and heart) to look the other way to not see the flood of information coming from government agencies, federal courts, as well as the news cycles.

We don't know that - when I asked that question here, all I got was snark.

See the stats in the article I linked above. I'll see if I can find more articles that are more recent. Since that articles was based on government-provided statistics, and it's the same government actually doing the deed, if anything, they would be incented to skew the numbers in their favor - and they are still pretty ugly.

Well, let's put that to bed ---- I don't know. Neither do you, or the wacky leftists on this board.

Actually - with reason certainty - the evidence is that these events are the minority. And that aligns (for me) with just plain old common sense. If the predominate number of children crossing our border were with non-parents or in abusive situations, it would "lead" because it bleeds. Available evidence shows that they cross alone (the unaccompanied children problem) or with their own parents or family members.

I go with facts, not sensationalist reporting.

I agree that this is one of those things one cannot "definitively prove," especially not in this age of "doubt everyone." But I find that a dangerous mindset. When we reach the point where we do not believe anyone about anything, it leaves all of us free to invent our own reality - and that is happening all over the place. The one I do not trust is Mr. Trump. His continued barrage on "Fake News" for anything he just doesn't want to hear has undermined our fourth estate. He is not alone. He is building on a theme that has been hammered on by media outlets like Fox and most of the Republican party. It has been a dangerous game for a long time, and now we are seeing the results. It's unfortunate, to say the least.

What would that accomplish? Aren't there plenty of people condemning this practice, including calling for the abolition of ICE, and even attacks on ICE personnel?

)

So, the problem is being resolved, yes? But we still need to rant and rave and pontificate on it? I don't get that, except it's more "let's hate Trump even more".

The "problem" should never have happened, and it is (as best I can tell) far from resolved. Note the judge's order above. IMO, an administration capable of creating this "problem" is not fit to lead this country. This isn't a "oops, I miscalculated on that tax thing" or "oops, we didn't foresee the outcome of that initiative." Sometimes, people make mistakes or fail to foresee outcomes. This is an administration that intentionally established a policy of separating children, regardless of age, from their parents. They did so with no thought to a reunification method. Indeed, they designed the process to make that almost impossible (i.e., separating A forms when families were separated).

The "shrug of the shoulders" dismissal of all of this strikes me as pretty odd. I find myself wondering what the man known as Jesus of Nazareth would have said about the situation were he here, and what would he say about his followers who were so casually dismissive of the entire situation?

If that makes me a drama queen, so be it. I find the entire situation a reflection of the moral fabric of this president and his administration. Of men like Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon. And Donald Trump.

[Cow Poke]

I don't know how I missed this response, but I did.

It happens.

This is the most recent breakdown I have seen. We also have a judge that apparently felt a need to order the government to stop medicating immigrant children without proper medical review. I could continue, but I have to admit, CP, that you have to be straining your head (and heart) to look the other way to not see the flood of information coming from government agencies, federal courts, as well as the news cycles.

OK, this kind of crap, Carpe, needs to stop. I am NOT 'straining my head (and heart) looking the other way. That's a steaming load of donkeypoo. I actually WORK with these people on a (almost) daily basis - we have a center for them right in my area. I eat lunch with them at least once a week. I'm not just bloggiin on a discussion board expressing horror at every turn, because I'm actually working the problem. There are PLENTY of Trump-haters out there to take up that cause - knock yourself out!

But blogging on a discussion board where there are maybe a dozen users at a given time SOLVES NOTHING. These kids are being used as political footballs by BOTH SIDES. YES, I put some of the blame on the Democrats, because there are enough Republicans who want to do something about this, who I believe would work with the Democrats - but the biggies on both sides don't really WANT this issue resolved --- it's too close to election time!

So you can take your....


Never mind..... Rant on!

[carpedm9587]

It happens.

OK, this kind of crap, Carpe, needs to stop. I am NOT 'straining my head (and heart) looking the other way. That's a steaming load of donkeypoo. I actually WORK with these people on a (almost) daily basis - we have a center for them right in my area. I eat lunch with them at least once a week. I'm not just bloggiin on a discussion board expressing horror at every turn, because I'm actually working the problem. There are PLENTY of Trump-haters out there to take up that cause - knock yourself out!

We're on a message board, CP. No one can see what you do - we can only see what you say. What you are saying appears to try to hedge and give Trump some wiggle room. It falls far short of a clear condemnation of his policy in this situation. That is remarkable (to me) given what you are apparently doing on a daily basis.

But blogging on a discussion board where there are maybe a dozen users at a given time SOLVES NOTHING. These kids are being used as political footballs by BOTH SIDES. YES, I put some of the blame on the Democrats, because there are enough Republicans who want to do something about this, who I believe would work with the Democrats - but the biggies on both sides don't really WANT this issue resolved --- it's too close to election time!

So you can take your....

Never mind..... Rant on!

I agree both sides are complicit in not solving the immigration law issue. Both sides are NOT complicit in Trumps selected policy with regard to this issue. Only Trump and his administration made the decision to reverse several administration's policies to enforce both relevant laws, except in situations where it resulted in family separation. No one owns that decision but Trump, and it was a reprehensible choice. No one is claiming it will "solve" anything to simply say that. But the unwillingness of so many to NOT clearly say that is, IMO, a significant problem. When good people do not clearly and unambiguously call out evil when they see it... well... many countries have seen the results.

[Cow Poke]

We're on a message board, CP.

Yeah, I think I pointed that out.

No one can see what you do - we can only see what you say.

I'm a lot more interested in what God sees.

What you are saying appears to try to hedge and give Trump some wiggle room.

And what you are saying appears to be "I hate Trump, and I'm going to find everything I can possibly find to prove he's evil". I already know he's a pantload.

It falls far short of a clear condemnation of his policy in this situation. That is remarkable (to me) given what you are apparently doing on a daily basis.

I've always believed in focusing my efforts on areas where there is a reasonable expectation of results. I stay in contact with my government representatives - they know me by first name - and I leave the hysterical ranting to others. I believe in "working the problem", not cursing the darkness.

I agree both sides are complicit in not solving the immigration law issue.

But I suspect you think the Republicans are far MORE complicit.

Both sides are NOT complicit in Trumps selected policy with regard to this issue.

And there are plenty of people here, and throughout the US and the world, who attack Trump and his policies -- they don't need me piling on.

Only Trump and his administration made the decision to reverse several administration's policies to enforce both relevant laws, except in situations where it resulted in family separation. No one owns that decision but Trump, and it was a reprehensible choice. No one is claiming it will "solve" anything to simply say that. But the unwillingness of so many to NOT clearly say that is, IMO, a significant problem. When good people do not clearly and unambiguously call out evil when they see it... well... many countries have seen the results.

What amazes me is how somebody who hates Trump just can't be happy unless everybody else hates Trump as well. I can't do anything about what Trump does or does not do. I CAN keep in contact with my elected officials - which I do, and they know full well how I feel about this - and I CAN work with people who are actually affected by this whole crisis. That is what I choose to do.

Rant on, brother, rant on!

[Sparko]

So with the news today that a child died in ICE detention due to negligent care, we're up to:

- A child dead
- A child sexually abused by someone already known to be a problem
- Failure to comply with the existing court order to reunite children and parents
- A new court order to cease dosing the children with sedatives

Where does the madness end? Make America Grieve Again.

ScreenHunter_.jpg

[carpedm9587]

Yeah, I think I pointed that out.

Yeah - but you seem to lose sight of it now and then...

I'm a lot more interested in what God sees.

Which is pretty much entirely beside the point I was making.

And what you are saying appears to be "I hate Trump, and I'm going to find everything I can possibly find to prove he's evil". I already know he's a pantload.

Yet you seem to be unwilling to decry this policy.

I've always believed in focusing my efforts on areas where there is a reasonable expectation of results. I stay in contact with my government representatives - they know me by first name - and I leave the hysterical ranting to others. I believe in "working the problem", not cursing the darkness.

Yet you are expending a great deal of energy responding to these posts - when a simple, "that policy was deplorable and should never have been initiated" would end the discussion.

But I suspect you think the Republicans are far MORE complicit.

You are free to suspect what you wish. You're wrong.

And there are plenty of people here, and throughout the US and the world, who attack Trump and his policies -- they don't need me piling on.

No one NEEDs you to pile on, CP. It's just very odd to have Christians all over this country NOT decrying this horrendous policy. That silence is deafening.

What amazes me is how somebody who hates Trump just can't be happy unless everybody else hates Trump as well.

No. But I AM amazed when people either defend, or stay silent about, incredibly bad things. I've watched the posts. There has been no such hesitancy to decry an incredible laundry list of things Obama did. Somehow, it wasn't "piling on" or "Obama hating" or "wasting your time on posts with no expectation of results." But when it's Trump...suddenly all of that becomes true? It is...well...oddly inconsistent, for someone who has been fairly consistent most of the time.

I can't do anything about what Trump does or does not do. I CAN keep in contact with my elected officials - which I do, and they know full well how I feel about this - and I CAN work with people who are actually affected by this whole crisis. That is what I choose to do.

You create a false dichotomy. We can do all of those things, and we can utter the simple phrase, "that policy was ugly and should never have happened." Unless, of course, you actually think otherwise.

Rant on, brother, rant on!

You've seen me rant on a couple of occasions, CP. This isn't even close. My emotional/mental state can best be described as "somewhat bemused."

[Cow Poke]

Yeah - but you seem to lose sight of it now and then...

No, I just don't seem to place the importance or significance on it that you do.

Yet you are expending a great deal of energy responding to these posts - when a simple, "that policy was deplorable and should never have been initiated" would end the discussion.

That policy was deplorable and should never have been initiated.

[carpedm9587]

No, I just don't seem to place the importance or significance on it that you do.

That policy was deplorable and should never have been initiated.

So...how's life?

[Littlejoe]

I actively campaigned against Trump in the Primaries, I was in the voting booth for a long time before I could actually select Trump. If cell phones were allowed I would have literally held my nose and took a pic of it. Enforcing the laws on the books as they actually are, is not deplorable or anything I have a problem with. When you live in a border state that is greatly affected by it, you have a different opinion about this. The criminal activity alone from this group makes this a good policy.

[carpedm9587]

I actively campaigned against Trump in the Primaries, I was in the voting booth for a long time before I could actually select Trump. If cell phones were allowed I would have literally held my nose and took a pic of it. Enforcing the laws on the books as they actually are, is not deplorable or anything I have a problem with. When you live in a border state that is greatly affected by it, you have a different opinion about this. The criminal activity alone from this group makes this a good policy.

So "illegal immigrant families with children" are a group that is a major source of crime on the border? I have to admit this is news to me. I have several friends that live on the border, and my views are partly colored by them. This is not what they tell me. Every single one (and one of them is a fairly rabid Republican) is opposed to this policy for this group of people. They acknowledge that crime on the border by illegal immigrants is a problem, but they cite drug traffickers, gang members, and (mostly) independent young men. I cannot recall seeing a single story about an illegal immigrant family committing a crime as they entered (other than the entering itself).

Is this documented anywhere?

[Sparko]

So "illegal immigrant families with children" are a group that is a major source of crime on the border? I have to admit this is news to me. I have several friends that live on the border, and my views are partly colored by them. This is not what they tell me. Every single one (and one of them is a fairly rabid Republican) is opposed to this policy for this group of people. They acknowledge that crime on the border by illegal immigrants is a problem, but they cite drug traffickers, gang members, and (mostly) independent young men. I cannot recall seeing a single story about an illegal immigrant family committing a crime as they entered (other than the entering itself).

Is this documented anywhere?

Do you think these families cross by themselves?

and yeah even the families will break into houses to get food and water and clothes as they pass through.

[carpedm9587]

Do you think these families cross by themselves?

As with most things, it depends. Some use coyotes. Some enter with other families. Some sneak in on their own. As with most things, it's a mixed bag, as far as I can tell.

and yeah even the families will break into houses to get food and water and clothes as they pass through.

I'd like something a bit more than speculation. Can you show me documentation that illegal immigrant families commit crimes as they enter the country? And one article about one family is not going to cut it if were talking about establishing a policy.

Meanwhile, I'll have to give some thought as to how/if this would alter my position if it were shown to be true.

[rogue06]

As with most things, it depends. Some use coyotes. Some enter with other families. Some sneak in on their own. As with most things, it's a mixed bag, as far as I can tell.

*ahem* According to an article in the The San Diego Union-Tribune "The United Nations estimates that undocumented immigrants attempting to jump the border hire coyotes 90 percent of the time."

But you can ignore it since I'm sure its yet another of those right wing memes that keep popping up

[Cow Poke]

Do you think these families cross by themselves?

and yeah even the families will break into houses to get food and water and clothes as they pass through.

I can absolutely attest to that, having been the facilities guy for a gas compression company with sites all along south Texas.

And, the would break our equipment to steal the site glasses to use for crack pipes.

[Charles]

The "problem" should never have happened, and it is (as best I can tell) far from resolved. Note the judge's order above. IMO, an administration capable of creating this "problem" is not fit to lead this country. This isn't a "oops, I miscalculated on that tax thing" or "oops, we didn't foresee the outcome of that initiative." Sometimes, people make mistakes or fail to foresee outcomes. This is an administration that intentionally established a policy of separating children, regardless of age, from their parents. They did so with no thought to a reunification method. Indeed, they designed the process to make that almost impossible (i.e., separating A forms when families were separated).

The "shrug of the shoulders" dismissal of all of this strikes me as pretty odd. I find myself wondering what the man known as Jesus of Nazareth would have said about the situation were he here, and what would he say about his followers who were so casually dismissive of the entire situation?

If that makes me a drama queen, so be it. I find the entire situation a reflection of the moral fabric of this president and his administration. Of men like Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon. And Donald Trump.

This is what I have been trying to say all along but I get the impression you said it way better.