Originally posted by Cow Poke
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SCOTUS & gay wedding cakes
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUnfortunately, CP, yes - it does. You are basing a moral position on genetics. That is pretty much a classic case of bigotry/prejudice.
GLBTX+ rights, in your mind, outweigh religious liberty.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThen there's really nothing to discuss with you on this.
GLBTX+ rights, in your mind, outweigh religious liberty.
And I still have not seen anyone refute the basic argument that this is a moral position based on genetics.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo.
I think an artist that voluntarily provides a service cannot discriminate against me because of my sex, my race, or my ethnicity.
Right. Keep telling yourself that.
Actually - not at all. No artist can be forced to articulate a view they find reprehensible. However, when what they "find reprehensible" is discriminatory, we have a different issue.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUnfortunately, CP, yes - it does. You are basing a moral position on genetics. That is pretty much a classic case of bigotry/prejudice.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo let's say a black person wants an artist to create a logo for a Black Lives Matter event and the artist refuses because he says BLM is a racist group and his brother is a cop.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat is your argument just saying logo instead of wedding cake.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostHow do you know their true motivation? In this case you are not believing the baker and claim he is being bigoted when he claims he is not. How do you know?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postnope. You are mind reading him and deciding what he was doing was bigotry. The supreme court disagreed.
But even if they had said, "no - the baker was in the right," I would have disagreed with their ruling, much as you disagree with Roe v. Wade.
You're not under the illusion that everything SCOTUS does is "right" or "moral" are you?
As for reading minds - no - I don't need to read minds. I am taking the baker at his word.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd yet, it wasn't bigotry for the thousands of years that everyone in the world was against gay marriage. Then poof!
"We always did it that way" is a poor argument.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThen there's really nothing to discuss with you on this.
GLBTX+ rights, in your mind, outweigh religious liberty.
- I do not think bigotry/prejudice can ever be defended on religious grounds.
- I do not think a religious person has any less right to free speech than anyone else.
- All rights and liberties have limits.
- I AM NOT challenging the right of religious people to HAVE this bigotry/prejudice.
- I AM challenging their right to exercise it in the public marketplace, especially when there is a simple alternative that gives the LGBTQ community its rights and preserves the religious freedom of the bakers. From my perspective, they want the right to have and follow their own moral framework and they want someone else to pay the cost.
That's the basics of my position. The reason I see it as a bigoted/prejudiced position I have already outlined. I do not believe you can base a moral position on genetics and escape the problem of bigotry/prejudice. When something is right for one person (or persons) but wrong for another, and the only difference is the genetic makeup of the participants, something is badly wrong. This observation keeps getting glossed over, ignored, or just "handwaved" away (as so many of you are so fond of saying). But it ha snot yet been actually addressed. If people cannot find another moral position that is based solely on the genetic identity of the participants, then I have to suggest that the argument against same-sex marriage and same-sex intimacy is a massive case of special pleading.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat one is a tougher one for me. Some Black Lives Matter people ARE racist, but the parent organization is not. However, this is about an organization, and not about the race, sex, or ethnicity of the people trying to secure the cake. So I would have to say they are in their rights to refuse.
yet in this case you accept his explanation that it was about not agreeing with the organization's principals not about the person. But in the case of the baker, you refuse to accept that he is just not agreeing with the principal of homosexual weddings being valid. the reason is that you WANT to accuse the baker of being a bigot so you don't take his word for it. This is all you.
Actually, you raise a good point. The baker could have simply said, "you know what, my calendar is full and I cannot take on any new clients right now," and no one would have known the actual reason was about bigotry/prejudice. I give them kudos for being honest. As for how I know - I know because he told me so.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostActually - it was. But it was not something we were sensitized to. And it was racism when we treated the native populations of the Americas and Africa as sub-human and enslaved them or killed them. But it took us centuries to realize that too.
"We always did it that way" is a poor argument.
Not bigotry to the other billions of people living on Earth at the time.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postyet you could make the same argument that you used with the baker and said that the only reason he refused to make the logo was because the person was black and black lives matter is a black organization so he was being racist and a bigot because of "genetics"
Originally posted by Sparko View Postyet in this case you accept his explanation that it was about not agreeing with the organization's principals not about the person. But in the case of the baker, you refuse to accept that he is just not agreeing with the principal of homosexual weddings being valid. the reason is that you WANT to accuse the baker of being a bigot so you don't take his word for it. This is all you.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou refuse to accept it is a "gay wedding cake" and insist it is just a wedding cake, so he has no basis to refuse to make it for anyone. I just used the same argument with the logo. It wasn't a "racist logo" it was just a logo used for racist purposes.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostHe was honest and said he was not refusing to sell to gay people. He just refused to make cakes for gay weddings.
Even the racist, Sparko, let the black person use the "black only" bathroom. Clearly they were not racist, right. After all, they provided a bathroom.
If you provide a service for X, and refuse to provide the same service for Y solely on the basis of their genetic identify, you are engaging in bigotry and prejudice. There is simply no escaping it.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt was only bigotry to YOU, remember? Relative morality?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostNot bigotry to the other billions of people living on Earth at the time.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOne step at a time, OK?
It is my sincerely held religious belief that 'gay marriage' is not valid.
Does that make me a bigot?
http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/c...-gay-marriage/
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