Originally posted by Cow Poke
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NFL�s Proposed National Anthem Rules
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Seriously, though, Roy, it's not about the anthem alone - it's (to me) about people who are being paid YUUUUUUGE sums of money to play games as members of a TEAM who decide to focus the attention on THEMSELVES and their own causes while on their employers' dime. The fact that they choose to do this during the anthem is just a major aggravating factor.
If they wanted to call a press conference, or be a guest speaker at a rally or event, I really don't give a flip. That, of course, would depend upon the contract they signed with their EMPLOYER.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNot to mention, there is a world of difference between students rioting to prevent someone from speaking and fans being upset and not watching a football game in protest.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostPretty much
No, you did not.
Correct - that was NOT a question.
So, to be clear, at no point did I assume your reaction was based on your history as a police officer. I did wonder if it was, hence my statement. You are right that I did not explicitly ask you a question, because I did not put a question mark at the end.
If someone said to me, "I have to wonder if your physical disability is influencing your point of view," my response would be "No, I've thought about that and it is not." I would not assume, on the basis of that statement, that they have come to the conclusion that my physical disability is having that effect - they are merely raising the possibility.
Apparently, you read these things differently than I. I'll try to remember that for future conversations.
And I'm sure all of that will earn me yet another "dodging/dancing" gif...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNot to mention, there is a world of difference between students rioting to prevent someone from speaking and fans being upset and not watching a football game in protest.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSeriously, though, Roy, it's not about the anthem alone - it's (to me) about people who are being paid YUUUUUUGE sums of money to play games as members of a TEAM who decide to focus the attention on THEMSELVES and their own causes while on their employers' dime. The fact that they choose to do this during the anthem is just a major aggravating factor.
If they wanted to call a press conference, or be a guest speaker at a rally or event, I really don't give a flip. That, of course, would depend upon the contract they signed with their EMPLOYER.
Or is this response limited to the causes you don't happen to agree with (e.g., like many police officers exhibiting implicit bias in the execution of their duties) at a specific time (e.g., the anthem) you don't agree with?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Carpe, I'm beginning to see why others find dialogue with you so freakin frustrating....
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't think I ever said "colleges = football." Obviously there are differences.
The point was that there is parallelism between the two.
And yet, the squelching of ideas is being done in both venues. An individual's ability to express themselves non-violently is being squelched.
Don't get me wrong, CP - I recognize the NFL as the employer has every right to limit the activity of employees.
The point that is being missed is that they would not HAVE to do this if the right was not pig-piling on these players,
taking massive offense at a simple protest, all whipped up by Mr. Trump. It's not the NFL I fault; it's the members of the right who are doing, in this venue, what they are accusing others of doing in other venues.
No - I'm comparing "silencing a message I don't want to hear" with "silencing a message I don't want to hear."
I think you folks
seem to be under the impression I am finding fault with the NFL.
I am finding fault with the people who are working to squelch the speech. The NFL is just their tool. I wish they had a better spine, but I don't really expect them to. Dollars talk, as we well know.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo when a player promotes their "March of Dimes" initiative during a half-time interview, or makes a pitch for "Habitat for Humanity," or stops and says a prayer in the end zone after a touch down, or wears special emblazoned cleats to promote a good cause, do you have similar responses? "That self-promoting so-and-so has no business promoting these initiatives on their EMPLOYERS dime!"
Or is this response limited to the causes you don't happen to agree with
(e.g., like many police officers exhibiting implicit bias in the execution of their duties) at a specific time (e.g., the anthem) you don't agree with?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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PS - It was not Trump who started all this. It was Kaepernic. And conservatives were upset about it when he did it and it was all over the news and then he got "fired" and then eventually others started doing it too and people got more upset and THEN Trump chimed in with a comment that they should be fired. Trump got on the bandwagon, not the other way around.
Kaepernick was also the one who was wearing police pig socks before and got in trouble for it. It was not the BLM. They also just got on the bandwagon later.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostPS - It was not Trump who started all this. It was Kaepernic. And conservatives were upset about it when he did it and it was all over the news and then he got "fired" and then eventually others started doing it too and people got more upset and THEN Trump chimed in with a comment that they should be fired. Trump got on the bandwagon, not the other way around.
Kaepernick was also the one who was wearing police pig socks before and got in trouble for it. It was not the BLM. They also just got on the bandwagon later.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo when a player promotes their "March of Dimes" initiative during a half-time interview, or makes a pitch for "Habitat for Humanity," or stops and says a prayer in the end zone after a touch down, or wears special emblazoned cleats to promote a good cause, do you have similar responses? "That self-promoting so-and-so has no business promoting these initiatives on their EMPLOYERS dime!"The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCarpe, I'm beginning to see why others find dialogue with you so freakin frustrating....
Yet you say....
So you add in a word to make it sound like you didn't say what you said, and ... sheeeeeesh!
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThe venues are as different as puppies and hand grenades. (OK, slight exaggeration)
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostESPECIALLY when those employees are getting paid YUUUUUUUUGE bucks to represent the TEAM.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Postpig-piling?
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Postwow -- as Sparko pointed out, the left seems to resort to riots and mayhem, the right chooses to oppose the issue and boycott.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat's what you THINK you're doing. You're totally missing the point. They can say whatever they want wherever they want ON THEIR OWN DIME. This is like going to a concert to hear somebody sing or do a comedy routine, and, instead, the launch into politics.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post"you folks"?
Not my impression - my impression is that you're defending "young men" (rich athletes) focusing the attention on THEMSELVES to advance their OWN agenda, when they are being paid YUUUUUUGE money (did I say YUUUUUUUUGE?) to be a TEAM.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhat's a boycott? Both the left and the right do that. And both complain when the other does it. It happens, it's life. Anybody else who has an employment contract does not have an unlimited right to "free speech" during working hours - but it's OK if they're "rich young men"? (get the reference? )
IMO, this is a Trump-ed up (pun intended) issue that both sides have just fallen in line to give Mr. Trump exactly what he wants: attention. And he gets to land with both feet on a racist agenda, pleading "no, it's about respect and the flag" all the way, roping most Republicans and probably all Trumpublicans along with him (though for most of them I suspect it is about flag/police, not about race).The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI actually almost suggested that they could do that during half-time, actually, when the focus was not supposed to be on the flag during the national anthem.
If they were making anti-abortion speeches during the National Anthem, I'd be just as opposed.
I find the protest to be silent, respectful, and appropriate. We're unlikely to agree. I suspect we see the anthem and flag in different terms.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm beginning to think you're far more interested in argument for the sake of argument than you are conversation.
For the record - I'm interested in both. They aren't mutually exclusive.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI wondered about that, and was checking into that, but this is a good opportunity for Carpe to blame Trump, so....
And I agree that some of the players have done/said inappropriate things (e.g., the pig socks). I don't support or condone those. I have no problem with taking a single knee during the anthem.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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