Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMorals are relative remember? Your preference is as valid as the pedophile's who disagrees with you.
Also, some terms carry moral implications in their definition. Killing is not implicitly immoral. "Murder" is defined as a wrongful (i.e., illegal/immoral) act of killing. Substituting, "murder is wrong" becomes "wrongful killing is wrong," which is true by tautology.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostHave you raised any teenangers? A 13 year old certainly can consent - or more often than not - resist.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostPedophilia isn't an act, it's a condition (Pedophilia is defined as an ongoing sexual attraction to pre-pubertal children). The act is called molestation or, in many cases, statutory rape.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostFirst, no moral position is valid to me other than my own. So they are not "equally" valid.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI was speaking valid to anyone else. Why should your idea of why pedophilia is wrong be more valid to anyone else than the pedophile's value that he is doing nothing wrong. Looking at it from the outside, if morals are relative, then your values are no more important than the pedophile's.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI was speaking valid to anyone else.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhy should your idea of why pedophilia is wrong be more valid to anyone else than the pedophile's value that he is doing nothing wrong.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostLooking at it from the outside, if morals are relative, then your values are no more important than the pedophile's.
None of those comparisons makes a thing moral or immoral. Individuals make that determination for themselves.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs Seer and I are discussing in a separate thread, you cannot make comparisons between relative frameworks without a reference frame for comparison. Each of us tends to evaluate moral statements made by other people against our own moral framework, using it as the reference frame.
It is subjectively more valid to me - by definition. There is no basis for an absolute comparison, so there is no way to declare differing moral frameworks as superior/inferior or even "equally valid." You cannot compare relative frameworks without a reference point.
You are trying to adopt an "objective" perspective when no such perspective exists. Determine the reference frame for evaluation, and then you can make comparisons. So if you use your own moral framework, one of us will be "closer" to your moral code than the other. If you use the so-called "Christian" moral framework (of which there are many), then you can determine which of us is closer. If you use the "most common human" moral framework (e.g., what most people believe) you can then determine which one is closer.
The point is, you keep arguing as if your values are more important than seer's or mine are. If you are correct in your view of relative morality, your idea of right and wrong means nothing to anyone but you. It is not any "better" than my view of morality, or seer's view, or the hypothetical pedophile.
Yet you continually seem to act as if your view is "right" and we are wrong. Your opinion is nothing but your opinion. It is not any more valid to the world than anyone else's. So why do you act like it is?
This is why we were using favorite colors and ice-cream as examples. Your moral values are not any more important to anyone than your favorite color. I don't see you arguing that we are wrong for liking different colors than you. We are not trivializing anything here because if you say the morals deal with lives and so are more important than colors, that is nothing but another relative value that you have. A serial killer might think that color is much more important than lives.
If morality is relative, then your values about life, behavior or color are meaningless to anyone. So stop trying to push your meaningless values on us. You should not be debating morality in the first place.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postis that your opinion?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI am talking from an outside point of view of a third non-biased-to-either-of-you party.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhy would your value of pedophilia be more valid than the pedophile's?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou are just trying to argue that whoever is judging your views will be closer to one of you than the other.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo what? Maybe he will be closer to the pedophile's view and think the pedophile's view is more valid.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe point is, you keep arguing as if your values are more important than seer's or mine are.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf you are correct in your view of relative morality, your idea of right and wrong means nothing to anyone but you.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt is not any "better" than my view of morality, or seer's view, or the hypothetical pedophile.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYet you continually seem to act as if your view is "right" and we are wrong.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYour opinion is nothing but your opinion.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt is not any more valid to the world than anyone else's.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo why do you act like it is?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThis is why we were using favorite colors and ice-cream as examples. Your moral values are not any more important to anyone than your favorite color. I don't see you arguing that we are wrong for liking different colors than you. We are not trivializing anything here because if you say the morals deal with lives and so are more important than colors, that is nothing but another relative value that you have. A serial killer might think that color is much more important than lives.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf morality is relative, then your values about life, behavior or color are meaningless to anyone.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo stop trying to push your meaningless values on us. You should not be debating morality in the first place.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI was speaking valid to anyone else. Why should your idea of why pedophilia is wrong be more valid to anyone else than the pedophile's value that he is doing nothing wrong. Looking at it from the outside, if morals are relative, then your values are no more important than the pedophile's.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostPeople do not moralize about colors.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt doesn't matter, opinion is opinion. It is you opinion that moral questions have more weight than other questions.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut when we get down to specifics that is not necessarily true, like my example of Joe six pack valuing the color of his new truck over the moral question of gay rights...
Your choice of trivial "preferences" doesn't alter how moralizing works, or show that relative/subjective morality doesn't work or doesn't exist. It simply attempts to diminish the position by consistently choosing trivial preferences by way of comparison, instead of tackling moral disagreements of substance. As has been noted multiple times, it's Debate Technique #2.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt is also how human beings moralize consistently moralize.
...an extreme example that a) doesn't occur in nature and b) doesn't change how moralizing occurs. If Joe values the color of his truck over gay rights, and convincing doesn't work, then he will be ignored (if his position is innocuous), isolated/separated (if his position is intrusive) or contended against (if his position does harm).
Your choice of trivial "preferences" doesn't alter how moralizing works, or show that relative/subjective morality doesn't work or doesn't exist. It simply attempts to diminish the position by consistently choosing trivial preferences by way of comparison, instead of tackling moral disagreements of substance. As has been noted multiple times, it's Debate Technique #2.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostTrue and we generally see moral questions as more important. But when we get to specifics that is where the problem lies.
Originally posted by seer View PostOf course it happens in nature, like the Nazi valuing something trivial over the life of a Jewish child. Or any time a man rapes - preferring his personal pleasure over any moral questions of right or wrong.
Originally posted by seer View PostNo, the point is what people value is that people value and people can and do value trivial things over moral considerations or question. And the man who values the color of his truck over gay rights is no more right or wrong than you who take the opposite view. Of course you believe that you are morally superior for having the position that you do, but that is just one more of your many delusions that can not be rationally justified.
And relative positions are not "delusions" any more than the differing reference frames with respect to speed, which produce different speed measurements, are "delusions." They are merely measurements from the perspective of that framework. "Delusions" is just another attempt at "Debate Technique #2" with a hint at "Debate Technique #1" (e.g., the implication being that only "absolute/objective" things are real, and relative/subjective things are "delusions.")Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-08-2018, 08:38 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
None of which is "the color of my truck" or "pizza."
People do indeed value differently - no question about it - so they also moralize differently. No question about that either.
And relative positions are not "delusions" any more than the differing reference frames with respect to speed, which produce different speed measurements, are "delusions." They are merely measurements from the perspective of that framework. "Delusions" is just another attempt at "Debate Technique #2" with a hint at "Debate Technique #1" (e.g., the implication being that only "absolute/objective" things are real, and relative/subjective things are "delusions.")Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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