Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut infinity is not even math, it is an ideal, not a real thing. In real math 2 minus 2 doesn't equal 2. That is basic math, and infinities are nothing like that.
I have no idea how else to explain it to you. Perhaps someone else will have better words. But the principle is sound.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut infinity is not even math, it is an ideal, not a real thing. In real math 2 minus 2 doesn't equal 2. That is basic math, and infinities are nothing like that.
Consider the integer sequence: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ...
This is an infinite series of number (implied by the ...). There is always another integer after any integer you write.
Now consider this series: 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, ...
Like the previous one, it is also an infinite series because it never ends. Note that both of these series continue to infinity, but the second series is missing the first five numbers present in the first series. It is, in a sense, infinity minus 5, yet it is still infinity.
The same holds true for Craig's library. Put the books on a long endless shelf. Number the books starting with the first one. What you now have is the integer series stretching off to infinity. Remove the first five books from the series, and the series STILL stretches off to infinity. It's just missing the first five books. The series are not equivalent, but they are both infinite.
There is no contradiction here. Craig is making the mistake of treating infinity as if it is any other number. It isn't.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-30-2018, 07:27 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThere is no contradiction here. Craig is making the mistake of treating infinity as if it is any other number. It isn't.Last edited by seer; 07-01-2018, 04:59 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAGAIN: You have not responded to my post: "You may well believe that 'the Bible holds the oracles of God' and that you'd 'be foolish not to follow them', but other people have the same view of the bible and yet they have different interpretations of it. Wars have been fought over different interpretations. Thousands of Christian denominations have arisen as a consequence of differing interpretations of scripture." Waiting! (tapping foot)Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight infinity is not a number, it is not math, it is a concept that does not follow the laws of mathematics. Math formulas can be falsified, the concept of infinity can not if you are right.
Originally posted by seer View PostSo there is reason to assume it exists or can exist in reality. Or that one could move through an actual infinity...Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-01-2018, 06:59 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostInfinity is not a number like any other number, but it does "follow the laws of mathematics." It just doesn't follow the laws as they apply to other numbers because infinity is NOT a specific number. Yet there are provable mathematical laws having to do with infinity. You might want to review them before you accept claims like Craig's claim.
If "move through" means "traverse the series," one can no more "move through an actual infinity" than one could complete counting an infinite series of numbers. Never-ending...remember?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostCan you name another math equation that can not be falsified? And what exactly is the number of infinity? Oh wait, it isn't an actual number, it is a word, a concept. It is not real.
As for "real," I have no idea what "real" means to you. My wife is standing across the kitchen from me. The distance between us can be divided into an infinite number of lengths. That distance is real and that infinite number of divisions is also quite real. The and on the clock on the wall will traverse an infinite number of points as it circles the clock face. All of that is real. The time it took me to write these sentences can be divided into an infinite number of increasingly smaller units. The fact that I cannot physically measure them because (a) I lack equipment of such precision and (b) I can never complete an infinite series, does not mean it is not real.
Originally posted by seer View PostYet you hold out the possibility that matter and energy moved through an infinite series of past events leading up to this universe. Which explains absolutely nothing, and could never be proven or falsified.
Originally posted by seer View PostNever mind that you would still have to propose a mechanism that could run this perpetual motion machine.
Originally posted by seer View PostBoth these assertions are beyond science.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd since we are beyond science, a single Creator would be much more parsimonious, than an infinite number of past physical events.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostGet off your high horse Tass, you and I have been over this before - more than once! I mean where on earth would the New Testament justify war because of a different understanding of scripture? Men are wicked Tass, and most of these things are as political as religious.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWho on earth says the mathematics of infinity cannot be falsified? Do you know the basic mathematical principles governing infinity in mathematics? And infinity is not a specific number, but it can be mathematically manipulated according to known rules when it occurs in mathematics. Indeed, infinity is more about set theory than classic mathematics.
As for "real," I have no idea what "real" means to you. My wife is standing across the kitchen from me. The distance between us can be divided into an infinite number of lengths. That distance is real and that infinite number of divisions is also quite real. The and on the clock on the wall will traverse an infinite number of points as it circles the clock face. All of that is real. The time it took me to write these sentences can be divided into an infinite number of increasingly smaller units. The fact that I cannot physically measure them because (a) I lack equipment of such precision and (b) I can never complete an infinite series, does not mean it is not real.
Which is why the best we can say is "we don't know." And I have no idea what you are trying to "explain."
Why do I need a "mechanism?" We already know that matter and energy exist, and they are interchangeable. One scenario physicists are looking at with renewed interest is the cyclical universe. If it were to be shown to be true, it would mean that matter/energy is itself eternal, and the universe has simply been collapsing and re-expanding forever. The fact is, we don't know this is true - and we don't know it isn't true.
Maybe.
Even if it is "beyond science," I do not fill holes in my knowing with "god did it." That is a classical "god of the gaps" argument. History tells us that these gaps are often (mostly? always eventually?) filled in by science, and the concept of god gives ground a bit more.Last edited by seer; 07-02-2018, 07:12 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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I would have to see what they understood the Scripture to be saying in light of the context, see if it holds up. And I don't do anything about those who get it wrong. We all get some things wrong, but if a man is sincere about understanding and following Scripture I believe, eventually, we will all be on the same page, even if that doesn't happen in this life. But I certainly have no justification, Biblically, to harm or war with those who see things differently.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOk so how can the CONCEPT of infinity be falsified?
Originally posted by seer View PostExcept you never actually reach infinity, you would just keep subdividing for eternity. What I mean concerning real, real physical infinities. The ability to subdivide does not tell us if physical infinities are real, or can be, and that is what we are discussing - and infinite series of past physical events leading up to this present universe.
Second: the argument fails because it falsely presumes a beginning. We cannot get to today because first we have to get to yesterday, but we cannot get to yesterday because first we have to get to the day before, and so forth. Because time stretches back to infinity, we cannot never get to today because....???? The argument searches for a beginning, but the point is that it is infinite. It has no beginning. It has always been, and will always continue on. We happen to be at this point on that continuum.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut you just said no one can move through an actual infinity, but some how matter and energy did move through a past infinity to reach this universe/point.
Originally posted by seer View PostYes, they have a lot of ideas, but again that is literally a perpetual motion machine, and it is right to ask what kind mechanism or laws could accomplish that, especially since on the face it violates the second law of thermal dynamics. And how can this ever be verified? Can you ever really know if this collapsing and expanding is past eternal with no beginning?
Originally posted by seer View PostI just told you why a cyclical can not be demonstrated to be past eternal. And let me quote Alexander Vilenkin:
It isn't the God of the gaps, it is the God of everything. It isn't a mere "gap" in knowledge, it is the whole show. And you are begging the question in favor of naturalism. So let me ask again, why wouldn't a single Creator would be much more parsimonious, than an infinite number of past physical events?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd you think a biblical quote it going to mean something...? Not to mention it does not answer the question...
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSomething can be falsified by outlining a test that, if it fails, shows the concept to fail. In mathematics, if memory serves, it is done using calculus and the concept of limits. I cannot say I recall the formulas, but you can do it by either showing that there is an N +1 for every N, or by showing that an integer can be repeatedly divided by any other integer (except 1 or 0) without producing the value zero.
Second: the argument fails because it falsely presumes a beginning. We cannot get to today because first we have to get to yesterday, but we cannot get to yesterday because first we have to get to the day before, and so forth. Because time stretches back to infinity, we cannot never get to today because....???? The argument searches for a beginning, but the point is that it is infinite. It has no beginning. It has always been, and will always continue on. We happen to be at this point on that continuum.
And we haven't...we're still on it. Tomorrow - the next day - the day after - etc.
I do not know enough about physics to tell you how this "big bounce" model can be verified. But some time ago I did find a great discussion on the entropy problem here - and it is very readable.
Actually, Seer, it is classic "god of the gaps." The fact is we do not know how the universe began. It is entirely possible we will never know. I certainly doubt we will know in my lifetime. Replacing "we don't know" with "god did it" is classic "god of the gaps."
It is not something I do. I do not reject the single creator notion a impossible. I reject it as unreal. My basis for rejecting it is the array of contradictions that human notions of god are filled with, the tendency for gods to be "remarkably human," the evidence of history showing gods to be of human origin, the continual "god of the gaps" model, the lack of any experience of such a being in my life, and the list goes on. I do not hold a positive belief in a thing that a) cannot be shown to exist, b) I have no experience of, and c) is riddled with contradictions.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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