Take Back Our Country

[Tassman]

Sure I have Tass, a number of times with you. Just read the teachings of Christ and the New Testament in general.

The problem with this is that preexisting values and changing social mores guide interpretation of the bible. There can be no way to arrive at a universal objective morality when members of competing sects and denominations hold absolute bible-based beliefs which are mutually exclusive

[seer]

The problem with this is that preexisting values and changing social mores guide interpretation of the bible. There can be no way to arrive at a universal objective morality when members of competing sects and denominations hold absolute bible-based beliefs which are mutually exclusive

Again, the moral injunctions in Scripture are not hard to understand nor do they need interpretation. We all understand what stealing is, fraud, murder, lying, adultery, homosexuality, envy, selfishness, etc... We understand the golden rule, what it means to love our fellow man.

[carpedm9587]

By definition, truth is the relationship between a statement/claim and its accuracy in reflecting reality. So of course it is relational. How could it be anything else? You have another way of defining what "truth" is an how it is determined?

So, no answer...?

[seer]

So, no answer...?

Truth is a proposition, for instance you said: truth is the relationship between a statement/claim and its accuracy in reflecting reality. That is a truth claim in itself. But it can not be an absolute claim, it is no more than an educated guess based on experience. So your statement is not an indisputable "truth." It is a provisional understanding. Then when looking at "facts" we soon run into the problem of induction.

[carpedm9587]

Truth is a proposition, for instance you said: truth is the relationship between a statement/claim and its accuracy in reflecting reality. That is a truth claim in itself. But it can not be an absolute claim, it is no more than an educated guess based on experience. So your statement is not an indisputable "truth." It is a provisional understanding. Then when looking at "facts" we soon run into the problem of induction.

Yes, truth is a proposition. Not all propositions, however, are "true." So what makes a proposition true? Can you define this in a non-relative way? That word (relative) seems to bother you.

[seer]

Yes, truth is a proposition. Not all propositions, however, are "true." So what makes a proposition true? Can you define this in a non-relative way? That word (relative) seems to bother you.

Sure, the oracles of God are non-relative truths. His attributes are non-relative truths. And when we apprehend these facts, we have apprehended absolute truths.

[carpedm9587]

Sure, the oracles of God are non-relative truths. His attributes are non-relative truths. And when we apprehend these facts, we have apprehended absolute truths.

Note that I am not asking you what you believe to be "real." "Real" and "True" are not the same thing. Real is something that actually exists. True is a value assigned to a statement/proposition when it aligns with what is real.

So the "oracles of god" appear to me to be statements/propositions, correct? That would mean they are true if they align with reality, and false if they do not.

God's attributes either exist or they do not. They are not "statements" or "propositions." A statement or proposition would be "An attribute of God is X." Again, that statement/proposition is true if those are actually god's attributes, and false if they are not.

Any time we have apprehended a proposition that is "true" we have apprehended an "absolute truth," so you're not saying anything new here. If I say, "my wife's name is Theresa" and her name is actually Theresa, then that statement is absolutely true, unless your definition of "absolutely" means something different than I am used to.

[seer]

How do you know these are non-relative truths?

Because God is immutable, His character and attributes can not be other than they are. He can not lie, be unjust, He can not cease to exist. Is all knowing, merciful, omnipresent, supremely powerful, good, timeless, etc...

[seer]

Any time we have apprehended a proposition that is "true" we have apprehended an "absolute truth," so you're not saying anything new here. If I say, "my wife's name is Theresa" and her name is actually Theresa, then that statement is absolutely true, unless your definition of "absolutely" means something different than I am used to.

Unless she decides to change her name. So it is a provisional or relative truth. I'm speaking of truths that can not change. I would put things like that the laws of logic or mathematics in this category, but even here I would say they are so because they proceed from the mind of God, it is how God thinks.

[carpedm9587]

Because God is immutable, His character and attributes can not be other than they are. He can not lie, be unjust, He can not cease to exist. Is all knowing, merciful, omnipresent, supremely powerful, good, timeless, etc...

These are all propositions about god. They are true propositions if god is those things, and false propositions if god is not those things, or simply is not. So, again, how do you assess the truth of a proposition if it is not relative to reality? You seem to think you have a more "absolute" way of doing this and that "truth" is not about the relationship between a proposition and the reality it reflects. Propositions are, by definition, symbolic representations of reality. It is not clear to me how they can be anything other than relative.

[carpedm9587]

Unless she decides to change her name. So it is a provisional or relative truth. I'm speaking of truths that can not change. I would put things like that the laws of logic or mathematics in this category, but even here I would say they are so because they proceed from the mind of God, it is how God thinks.

"My wife's name is Theresa," is a specific statement uttered in a specific time (hence the "is," as in "is now"). But if that is still too "relative" for you, we can shift it slightly, "Michel's wife's name was Theresa at 11:01 AM on 6/28/18." If you want me to add unique information for identity purposes, I could ad our Soc. Sec and specific locale, right down to planet, solar system, and galaxy.

Once we frame a sentence in terms of space and time, it becomes unchangably true. So I guess I don't get your distinction....

[carpedm9587]

Because God is immutable, His character and attributes can not be other than they are. He can not lie, be unjust, He can not cease to exist. Is all knowing, merciful, omnipresent, supremely powerful, good, timeless, etc...

BTW - how do you know god is immutable?

[seer]

BTW - how do you know god is immutable?

He tells us...

[seer]

"My wife's name is Theresa," is a specific statement uttered in a specific time (hence the "is," as in "is now"). But if that is still too "relative" for you, we can shift it slightly, "Michel's wife's name was Theresa at 11:01 AM on 6/28/18." If you want me to add unique information for identity purposes, I could ad our Soc. Sec and specific locale, right down to planet, solar system, and galaxy.

Once we frame a sentence in terms of space and time, it becomes unchangably true. So I guess I don't get your distinction....

Again, what her name is, is not an absolute truth, if it can change, it is relative.

[seer]

These are all propositions about god. They are true propositions if god is those things, and false propositions if god is not those things, or simply is not. So, again, how do you assess the truth of a proposition if it is not relative to reality? You seem to think you have a more "absolute" way of doing this and that "truth" is not about the relationship between a proposition and the reality it reflects. Propositions are, by definition, symbolic representations of reality. It is not clear to me how they can be anything other than relative.

I have no idea what that means, God's being and character can not be relative. All that is necessary is that God revel these facts to us, then we know those absolute truths.