One would hope not. The problem is that power tends to corrupt. And it does not matter if that power is religious or nonreligious.
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOne difference i can think of is that the Crusade deaths were mostly military. Armies on both sides killing each other. I am sure there were some civilian casualties or atrocities along the way from both sides (The crusades started because the muslims were attacking Christian pilgrims on the way to the Holy Land) - But the Khmer Rouge was genocide. Killing cambodian civilians. Pol Pot was more akin to Hitler than the Pope of the Crusades. Not a valid comparison on your part.
And yes, the Khmer Rouge was genocide. No question about it. I'm not sure why that makes it better/worse.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd yet it remains religious war...
And yes, the Khmer Rouge was genocide. No question about it. I'm not sure why that makes it better/worse.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postso it was a religious war. It doesn't make it an atrocity or genocide by their own government. If you don't think genocide is worse than a normal war action, religious or not, then there is something wrong with you that I can't fix with a post.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo in your mind, people dying in the US Army in WW2 were just as bad as what Hitler did to the Jews?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo if an atrocity takes longer to unfold, it's less of an atrocity?
No one said "necessary." When weapons become more powerful, the opportunity for greater destruction increases as well. In other words, we don't know what the destruction during the Crusades would have been if they had had 20th century weapons.
Likewise, we don't know what the destruction in Cambodia would have been if they had not had them.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostThe atheist genocide in Cambodia didn't rely on modern technology for its killing. It's a counter-example to the idea that atheist atrocities only look so bad because by pure chance they happened in a time when military technology allowed greater killing rates."Not supposed to be" and "are not" are not the same thing.
As noted - everyone take positions on issues. Mine do not require me to first interpret what god wanted as written in a 2,000+ year old tome with no original documents and available to most as a translation only.
I can simply look at the situation, and assess it against my moral posture directly. And my moral posture can change as new information becomes available.
OBP, when someone has determined that "X is what god wants," attempting to change that perspective is close to impossible.
After all, anything you say is speaking directly against "the will of god." It locks people in worldviews. Some of these are good - which is good. Some of these are abysmally bad - but there is no shaking someone who believes they are acting "as god wills."
In my experience, for fundamentalist Christians, that would make you a rarity - at least in my experience. I cannot tell you how many times I have been told (here and elsewhere) that my thoughts words are useless because I am "not saved."
Actually - they do it because it's a good thing to do. They don't do it because of atheism.
They also don't do it because god expects it. When an atheists acts, it's not because it is the will of god, or because it will earn them heaven. They do it for no other reason than it is the right/good thing to do.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou know better than that. Quit evading the point - if you can.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThey'd have been over a lot more quickly, because neither side had the manpower to sustain fight in the face of such mass destruction.
Have you not been paying attention?
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostDid I say it was? We're comparing ideals here, right?
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostMine don't especially, either. 1) Love God. 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. 3) Act accordingly.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes, you have no moral backbone. You are the final arbiter of what is right, and so can excuse whatever you want - and you imagine that's a good thing.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'm not much in favor of individuals determining what god wants - that's one reason I'm Orthodox.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAnd you think there is the possibility of shaking someone who believes they are doing 'what is right'? Take you for example. Let's not pretend that you're open to changing what you believe is right.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm a fundamentalist Christian. I was raised in a fundamentalist church, but I rejected some of its views even as a teenager, and the intervening years have not gotten me any closer.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOh, I agree. Because atheism is not a motivating factor, atheism itself cannot be credited with being 'very good' because of it. You yourself say that it's not material.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostBecause they decide it is the right/good thing to do. That "right/good thing" could be killing kittens and puppies (*graphic pics*) because they think that's better than putting them up for adoption.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIs that your passive-aggressive way to avoid answering me?
If you don't already know what I am going to answer...what anyone would answer (I hope)...then we've probably shifted too far from reality for any reasonable discussion.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - it is my fairly straightforward way of expressing amazement that you could even ask the question.
If you don't already know what I am going to answer...what anyone would answer (I hope)...then we've probably shifted too far from reality for any reasonable discussion.
And yet it remains religious war...
And yes, the Khmer Rouge was genocide. No question about it. I'm not sure why that makes it better/worse.
Your playing games and acting outraged or surprised by my question is just your way of avoiding the consequences of your stated views.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou were the one who said:
You seem to think that a war is as bad as a government committing genocide.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo why aren't the deaths of soldiers in WW2 just as bad an atrocity as the Nazi genocide of Jews?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYour playing games and acting outraged or surprised by my question is just your way of avoiding the consequences of your stated views.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou are attempting to take a position I have on a particular set of wars (the Crusades) and apply it to all wars. Since my original position was specifically about the Crusades - that attempts is not justified.
Yet you made the asinine comment that you didn't see any difference in those deaths and genocide.
Now you are trying to equivocate your way out like you usually do.
That is a complex question. In general, however, I would equate those who are killed fighting a country that performing genocide with those being killed by the genocide itself, especially if they were conscripted to do so. The lack of choice brings them into direct parallel. For a volunteer fighting force, I am in awe of their bravery and willingness to oppose such atrocity. I have no mechanism for assessing "better" or "worse."
And you are (again) attempting to read minds. History tells me that, when you do that, nothing I say will make any difference, so you are welcome to your opinion. You're wrong - but I suspect you will very likely not believe that.
It is a pattern with you. Not hard to predict. Not mind reading.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postyou are equivocating again.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt started when I made the statement that the people killed in the Crusades were mostly military: Armies. Just like in any other war. Wars are fought for many reasons: religion, land, politics, resources. They all have armies and people die fighting them. There is nothing different about a religious war. The Crusades were because the Muslims invaded Jerusalem, took it over, and then started killing pilgrims. They started it. Not much different than why modern wars start today.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYet you made the asinine comment that you didn't see any difference in those deaths and genocide.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostNow you are trying to equivocate your way out like you usually do.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI can't parse that at all. Try again.
Basically - if a fighting force is fighting to protect itself against genocide, or to protect others against genocide, their deaths are as horrendous (to me) as those being killed directly by the genocide, especially if they were conscripted to this war. I find that to be so because the deaths would not be necessary if there was no genocide. When the fighting force is conscripted in other contexts, or is voluntary in this context, things get fuzzy/complex and I see no clear way to make an equality. I am in awe, however, of the voluntary force that fights a war against the genocide of a foreign people. That is an amazing degree of sacrifice. Part of me feels those deaths are worse than the genocide, but I have no way to defend/support that position except on feelings.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI am not reading minds, I am commenting on what you are actually DOING.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou do it often enough that it is easily recognizable. You are a very wishy-washy passive-aggressive debater. You like to imply a lot of things, then back down when called on it, claiming you never said what you implied. When pushed further, you start equivocating, redefining words, nitpicking points, claiming you answered in a previous post, and then if that doesn't work, you claim you have said what you wanted and you are done because nothing productive is happening and you will give the person the last word. In other words, you run away. Never resolving the conflict or admitting you were wrong.
It is a pattern with you. Not hard to predict. Not mind reading.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe Crusades were because the Muslims invaded Jerusalem, took it over, and then started killing pilgrims. They started it.Last edited by Roy; 06-01-2018, 07:06 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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