Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe discrimination is against the couple marrying. Your example is analogous to the racist restaurateur who sells food to a white person oblivious to the fact that it is ultimately for a black person. It doesn't make them less racist.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe point remains carpe. you seem to have morals and values that you expect everyone else to agree with and at the same time you claim to be a moral relativist.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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At this point, the discussion is degenerating into another round of "what is moral relativism" and other tangents. Those have all been discussed ad nauseum, so I'm going to let those go. And I'm going to cease responding to comments and observations since they appear to simply repeat previously made (and responded to) comments. I'm happy to let folks have their last word. If someone asks me a direct question, however, I will be happy to respond.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAt this point, the discussion is degenerating into another round of "what is moral relativism" and other tangents. Those have all been discussed ad nauseum, so I'm going to let those go. And I'm going to cease responding to comments and observations and let folks have their last word. If someone asks me a direct question, I will be happy to respond to those.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou haven't answered Ox. You pretty much avoided his question and scenario by deliberately 'misunderstanding' what he said even after he patiently explained it to you.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo yes to the first part - it is a moral judgment. Everyone imposes their moral framework on everyone else. The position of the Christian right is "homosexual sex is immoral." They believe it is immoral for everyone everywhere to to everyone everywhere. I don't see a difference. As for the "not true," we disagree on that.
But there is in fact a deeper evil here. There are views and opinions. Cultural senses of what is done and what is not done, what is ok and what is not ok. And then there are deeply held moral convictions about what is right and what is wrong. Usually a deeply held sense of morality is a fundamental element of a person's makeup. A person may or may not willingly violate their own sense of what is morally right, but when a person chooses to act on what they truly to the core believe is right, that person is acting according to conscience and on a level fundamental to who they are. When another person then demands that person violate that commitment to their core morality, they do unspeakable harm to that person.
The plaintiffs in this case are committing far more evil than whatever evil may have come to them by being rejected as it relates to the cake. They could have simply moved on. Instead they have sought their revenge, and what they are now demanding as payment for their hurt is the corruption of the defendant's basic moral fiber or the elimination of their livelyhood. IT is never ok to force a person violate that which they truly believe is the right thing to do, especially as regards personal or sexual morality. And that is what this lawsuit attempts to do. What it is saying is that these people either compromise their conscience or go out of business. It is tyranny.
We can debate morality. We can try to change opinions through education and research. But to force a man to violate his conscience as part of our revenge reverses the role of victim and criminal in this situation. Had the baker truly discriminated on sexual orientation, the case would be different. But that is not the case here. The baker has a moral code and can not in good conscience build a cake which celebrates same-sex marriage. And no-one has a right to force him to violate his conscience, and only an evil person would try to destroy his business or capacity to do business as payment. Assuming this is in fact a moral conflict for the baker, the baker is acting out of moral conviction, not vindictiveness, not hatred, in fact not out of any evil intent.
Further - the basic principles of this case - that a customer has the right to dictate the creative activities of an artisan regardless of what the artisan's conscience tells them about the activity, opens wide the door for a whole host of abuses. I can imagine a Neo-Nazi couple using these results to put a Jewish baker out of business by demanding their wedding cake be decorated with Nazi swasticas and figurines of Hitler and Gestapo thugs. He would of course refuse, but this case would give them the right to sue him and destroy his business.
You have no idea what you are actually supporting here. And it is not the rights of same-sex couples to exist, marry, and live in peace.
All of them have to do with who is married - not what "being married" is.
Proponents of same-sex marriage want to CHANGE those core elements so that they can redefine marriage to include a new conception of marriage. AFAIK, before the last 30 years, marriage is not and never has been in human history divorced from the concept that the two participants were of the opposite sex.
The issue is that the two people marrying share the same sexual equipment.
I have no idea, and I try not to speculate. If they did, they would be wrong. If they did not, they would be fine.
This is simply not the case. The only difference is the sex of the two people marrying.
And we will never agree on this case. But it would not be hard to parse the truth here. If the bakers routinely baked cakes for homosexual customers without regard to their sexual orientation, then the issue is the moral conflict, the celebration itself. If they routinely eschew homosexual patrons, then one could make your case as reflective of the reality.
But more importantly and to the key point: any person concerned with the well being of others, any person of moral character would never ask another person to violate deeply held issues of conscience for their own personal convenience.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 05-03-2018, 09:59 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhen you expect everyone else to agree with your morality to the point of making it law, then you are no longer promoting moral relativity.
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Jim -
After writing a detailed response, it suddenly dawned on me that you didn't ask a single question of me. So I'm going to leave your response as a "last word." Most of what I would have responded I have already said in other venues.Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-04-2018, 05:30 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostJim -
After writing a detailed response, it suddenly dawned on me that you didn't ask a single question of me. So I'm going to leave your response as a "last word." Most of what I would have responded I have already said in other venues.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSince you are willing to answer specific questions I will ask again Carp: Should a Catholic doctor be required, by law, to prescribe the morning after pill?
For that same reason, I don't agree with the attempt to force a business to insure medical practices that run counter to that business owner's morality. No one is forcing people to work there, and as long as what is and is not covered is made public at time of hiring, the same principal applies: everyone is being treated the same. There is no prejudice involved.Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-04-2018, 07:22 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI've been giving some thought to this. I don't see a reason why this should be a requirement. The problem is consistently providing service without respect to the type of customer. If a doctor provides morning after pills to white women and not black ones, that would be a problem. There is also no problem with providing the pill to women and not men, since the pill is for women. But if the doctor declines to provide the pill to anyone, they are being consistent in the service they offer. They are not doing one thing for one group and another thing for another group. There is no reason to impose this requirement, AFAICT.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostJim -
After writing a detailed response, it suddenly dawned on me that you didn't ask a single question of me. So I'm going to leave your response as a "last word." Most of what I would have responded I have already said in other venues.
I point this out because I believe fundamentally you want to honest and reasoned in your responses to these issues. But how you've handled this specific debate would indicate to me this is one topic where you are not yet quite able to do that.
In the end, I believe that this case, if it ends up siding with the plaintiffs, will be a massive blow to the ability of citizens of this nation to act according to conscience. Yes, it will make advocates of same-sex rights feel better. But at the cost of one more step towards true tyranny. Towards an Orwellian society where thought and conscience is effectively controlled by the state.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 05-04-2018, 07:43 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Carpe what do you think of the case where the bakery refused to make a bible shaped cake with "God hates Gays" on it?
In March of 2014, a customer named Bill Jack requested several cakes in the shapes of Bibles from the Azucar Bakery in Denver, Colo., according to the bakery owner, Marjorie Silva.
Silva says Jack pulled out a piece of paper with phrases like "God hates gays" and requested her to write them on his cakes.
He wouldn't let employees make a copy of the paper and would not read the words out loud, Silva claims. The bakery owner also says the customer wanted an image of two men holding hands with an "X" on top.
"After I read it, I was like 'No way,'" Silva said. "'We're not doing this. This is just very discriminatory and hateful.'"
In a statement to 9NEWS Jack said, "I believe I was discriminated against by the bakery based on my creed."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...cake/22061115/
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostCarpe what do you think of the case where the bakery refused to make a bible shaped cake with "God hates Gays" on it?
In March of 2014, a customer named Bill Jack requested several cakes in the shapes of Bibles from the Azucar Bakery in Denver, Colo., according to the bakery owner, Marjorie Silva.
Silva says Jack pulled out a piece of paper with phrases like "God hates gays" and requested her to write them on his cakes.
He wouldn't let employees make a copy of the paper and would not read the words out loud, Silva claims. The bakery owner also says the customer wanted an image of two men holding hands with an "X" on top.
"After I read it, I was like 'No way,'" Silva said. "'We're not doing this. This is just very discriminatory and hateful.'"
In a statement to 9NEWS Jack said, "I believe I was discriminated against by the bakery based on my creed."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...cake/22061115/
The same thing happens if the baker refuses to make wedding cakes for anyone and simply bakes other things. There is nothing prejudicial about NOT offering a service, so long as the service is being rejected (or provided) in the same way for all classes of people.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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