Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Why do I have to serve them? Because the law of man says so? It certainly is not Constitutional.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou might want to shoot for re-education camps, that would speed up the process.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by hedrick View PostYou can see my answer to that elsewhere, but it's not relevant to this discussion. The question is how we treat people who we think are wrong. If we can't find a way to do that, there's no way the US can continue. If it's not gays, it will be Muslims, or immigrants, or someone else.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWe should want to treat them exactly how we would like to be treated when we know we are sinning.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWe should want to treat them exactly how we would like to be treated when we know we are sinning.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell - that change is underway. Even in the world of white, evangelical protestants, only 58% oppose gay marriage. The other 32% are either in support, or are undecided. So there are even evangelicals who are rejecting the anti-LGBTQ language. When you move outside of evangelicals to the broader Christian community, the majority already have accepted the LGBTQ community and same-sex marriage. That tends to be more true in developed countries than developing countries, where there is still not only religious opposition, but a great deal of cultural opposition.
There is an enormous amount of speculation here. It is a fact that AIDS entered the human species via the gay community. It is by no means a known fact that it could not have entered in any other way. Indeed, heterosexuals are as prone to AIDS as homosexuals. Had AIDS actually entered via heterosexual encounters, the damage might have been amazingly broader before the source of the problem was identified. The rest of your claims are also high speculative. I don't find that kind of speculation useful. And, as I have said before, "we've always done it that way" is not a very strong argument, IMO.
So here it is in its most simplistic terms. Sexually transmitted diseases like HIV for the most part are transmitted through sexual contact. If a society follows the Biblical sexual morality, sexual contact ONLY occurs between married hetero-sexuals. That means that the spread of any beyond the immediate partner of any sexually transmitted disease becomes virtually impossible. And thinking in terms of which came first, in a society that followed those norms, it would be hard to understand how even one member of the marriage first became infected. But of course there are other vectors (tainted blood supply, unsterilized needles). But then again, in a society following Christian moral norms, those vectors would also tend to be rare exceptions, not the norm, because people living according to Christs teachings aren't typically out doing drugs and sharing needles, and so the blood supply is much less likely to be contaminated, and so on and so forth. Further, people living according to Christian moral norms should not be getting divorces every other year and so the number of children living in single parent households goes way down. And so on, and so on. Most of these issues exist because people (whether that claim Christian faith or not) don't live their lives according to what Christ and the Bible teaches.
Ergo, Christian morality is in fact a very high road.
Conversely - acceptance of a homosexual lifestyle is almost always accompanied by an acceptance of 'openness' about sexuality and the eschewing of those 'rigid' Christian moral norms, with the ensuing problems of increased incidence of unwed mothers, sexually transmitted disease an so on. And so that is almost always a moral low road.
The only possible 'mixture' of the two would be some sort of morality tolerant of same-sex relationships wherein those relationships involve sexuality ONLY in a monogamous, lifelong relationship. The issues then would become could that even be a reasonable expectation (especially in male same-sex relationships) given the dynamics (statistically*) of the male sex drive.
*part of the difficulty here is the lack of capacity for people on your side of the fence to recognize the inherent biological differences in male and female, not only from a reproductive perspective, but in terms of sex-drive, partner selection criteria, tendency towards aggression and predatory practices vs nurturing, enduring relationships and so on. We are not all the same, and even if religious motivations are left out of it one MUST recognize that male and female of all species have evolved different roles, different motivations, even differing personality traits ostensibly to maximize the success of the species)
This may come as a surprise, but I do not hold anyone here "in contempt." Indeed, I have been very clear that I think this is a group of fundamentally good people, but that even good people can be wrong and do immoral things. I don't think anyone here intends harm. That does not change the fact that harm is being done. I don't think anyone here is looking to be or act immorally. That doesn't mean an immoral position is not being taken. It is very hard to say to someone, "you position is prejudicial and harmful - it really needs your attention," without making them angry. No one likes being told they are acting or speaking immorally. But the fact is I have contempt for no one here.
That is of course, the point of dispute. I understand that you see my position as the immoral one. That is why we are in contention. I also understand I have little hope of changing any minds here. Morality obligates me to try. In the end, I suspect this will be fought out in the courts and in the cultural arena. These posts are my contribution to the latter. Even if no one in this exchange is moved to re-evaluate their position, perhaps some reader in the days or weeks or months to come will read and begin to reassess their position. Even one person shifting their stance on this is a plus.
Of course, there is always the risk that someone will read and be convinced by your words or Seer's words instead. However, the vast majority of people who come here share your views, and those who share mine are not likely to shift them. Many people I know have gone from anti-LGBTQ rhetoric to support. I don't know anyone who has done the reverse. In my experience, it's harder to go from acceptance to rejection than rejection to acceptance. Hopefully that is true for the wider world as well.
I am not sure what you are saying here. The first sentence is not linguistically sound (AFAICT). The second seems self-evident. As a result, I don't know what to do with the last two sentences. Perhaps you could explain?
Michel
So this is an experiment. We have no successful historical government taking this path to draw from as an example or for wisdom on how to negotiate this path. We have no idea whether or not it is even possible to successfully negotiate this path.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIf a society follows the Biblical sexual morality, sexual contact ONLY occurs between married hetero-sexuals. That means that the spread of any beyond the immediate partner of any sexually transmitted disease becomes virtually impossible.
And thinking in terms of which came first, in a society that followed those norms, it would be hard to understand how even one member of the marriage first became infected.
Ergo, Christian morality is in fact a very high road.
The only possible 'mixture' of the two would be some sort of morality tolerant of same-sex relationships wherein those relationships involve sexuality ONLY in a monogamous, lifelong relationship.
The issues then would become could that even be a reasonable expectation (especially in male same-sex relationships) given the dynamics (statistically*) of the male sex drive.
*part of the difficulty here is the lack of capacity for people on your side of the fence to recognize the inherent biological differences in male and female, not only from a reproductive perspective, but in terms of sex-drive, partner selection criteria, tendency towards aggression and predatory practices vs nurturing, enduring relationships and so on. We are not all the same, and even if religious motivations are left out of it one MUST recognize that male and female of all species have evolved different roles, different motivations, even differing personality traits ostensibly to maximize the success of the species)
If your suggestion is "men cheat", then sure, that can happen, and insofar as you have a man in a heterosexual relationship it can happen and insofar as you have men in a homosexual relationship it can happen. Of course, by your theory the best relationships would then be two women in a homosexual relationship.
In general, I would say from looking at the data in different types of relationships (male-male, male-female, female-female): There are differences between males and females, and we thus see the things that are characteristic of each sex expressed in proportion to the number of people of that sex that there are in the relationship. There do not however appear to be any significant differences between gay and straight people, and the only significant difference in type of relationship is better relationship dynamics in same-sex relationships due to more shared attributes (in general, relationships (heterosexual included) where the two people have more in common tend to work better as are conflicts are resolved more efficiently due to greater empathy - better understanding of the other person's point of view).
with you or others for same-sex marriage I won't abandon my focus on arguments against same-sex marriage and look at arguments for same-sex marriage until I see a willingness on your part to listen to and discuss the arguments against it.
The idea of a society supporting same sex relationships with some sort of marriage like construct is rare or perhaps even non-existent historically.
Historically, the support or tolerance of homo-sexuality is part of a larger moral decay in those same societies.
We have no successful historical government taking this path to draw from as an example or for wisdom on how to negotiate this path.Last edited by Starlight; 05-06-2018, 04:01 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
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"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostYes, it is changing. Whether or not that change is right is what the debate IS in this case. Your belief that you are right is YOUR belief. I am at a place of mixed feelings on the issue. And so far I can't get anyone to engage the topics that might actually shed light on whether or not there are any factual basis for either moral position. In fact, just bringing up the factors that might shed light on the conclusion so far results only in a firestorm of stereotyped responses and accusations. For you, it is impossible that it could be wrong. For the other side, it is impossible it could be right. And so discussion is not part of the equation.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI can only guess why you didn't understand the point I was getting at, but given the volatile nature of the discussion, I'll chaulk it up to prejudice and emotion (prejudice in that you have a preconceived conception of the point I was trying to make and thus couldn't rationally parse the words themselves).
So here it is in its most simplistic terms. Sexually transmitted diseases like HIV for the most part are transmitted through sexual contact. If a society follows the Biblical sexual morality, sexual contact ONLY occurs between married hetero-sexuals. That means that the spread of any beyond the immediate partner of any sexually transmitted disease becomes virtually impossible. And thinking in terms of which came first, in a society that followed those norms, it would be hard to understand how even one member of the marriage first became infected. But of course there are other vectors (tainted blood supply, unsterilized needles). But then again, in a society following Christian moral norms, those vectors would also tend to be rare exceptions, not the norm, because people living according to Christs teachings aren't typically out doing drugs and sharing needles, and so the blood supply is much less likely to be contaminated, and so on and so forth. Further, people living according to Christian moral norms should not be getting divorces every other year and so the number of children living in single parent households goes way down. And so on, and so on. Most of these issues exist because people (whether that claim Christian faith or not) don't live their lives according to what Christ and the Bible teaches.
Ergo, Christian morality is in fact a very high road.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostConversely - acceptance of a homosexual lifestyle is almost always accompanied by an acceptance of 'openness' about sexuality and the eschewing of those 'rigid' Christian moral norms, with the ensuing problems of increased incidence of unwed mothers, sexually transmitted disease an so on. And so that is almost always a moral low road.
The only possible 'mixture' of the two would be some sort of morality tolerant of same-sex relationships wherein those relationships involve sexuality ONLY in a monogamous, lifelong relationship. The issues then would become could that even be a reasonable expectation (especially in male same-sex relationships) given the dynamics (statistically*) of the male sex drive.
*part of the difficulty here is the lack of capacity for people on your side of the fence to recognize the inherent biological differences in male and female, not only from a reproductive perspective, but in terms of sex-drive, partner selection criteria, tendency towards aggression and predatory practices vs nurturing, enduring relationships and so on. We are not all the same, and even if religious motivations are left out of it one MUST recognize that male and female of all species have evolved different roles, different motivations, even differing personality traits ostensibly to maximize the success of the species)
I also suggest that there is no more or less sexual promiscuity in the homosexual community than there is in the heterosexual community. Promiscuity is an outgrowth of the "free-sex 60s and 70s (though I have to wonder if those years simply took sexual freedom out of the closet). And while both can lead to STDs if care is not taken, homosexual unions don't result in unwanted pregnancies. For anything we examine, there are positive things, and negative things. It makes no sense to focus on one to the exclusion of the other.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostLikewise in reverse. But what I see, other than contempt for certain ideas, is an unwillingness to discuss any of the elements that could support a conclusion other than the one you already hold. If one is actually concerned about the truth in a matter, one must face the arguments for the opposing opinion. I'm trying to discuss all sides of the argument. but with you or others for same-sex marriage I won't abandon my focus on arguments against same-sex marriage and look at arguments for same-sex marriage until I see a willingness on your part to listen to and discuss the arguments against it.
Again, from my perspective, until you show me you have thought about the opposing point of view and actually understand it and have reasoned responses to it, then I really don't have a reason to hear what it is that you are saying as have any valid foundation. This is why I started where I did. I'm looking for what you have thought through on those points and why you don't find them persuasive. 'They are an old view' or 'I'm not religious' are not reasoned responses.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIt could be that the trend you see is due to the stronger argument being your own. It could also be that only arguments that are allowed to be heard are your own. The way to find out is to discuss BOTH sides and see which side has the stronger position.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIt was clumsily worded. The idea of a society supporting same sex relationships with some sort of marriage like construct is rare or perhaps even non-existent historically. Historically, the support or tolerance of homo-sexuality is part of a larger moral decay in those same societies. And the reality is that the rise of advocacy for the tolerance of homo-sexuality in our society is also concurrent with a general moral decay as regards sexuality and sexual practices.
So this is an experiment. We have no successful historical government taking this path to draw from as an example or for wisdom on how to negotiate this path. We have no idea whether or not it is even possible to successfully negotiate this path.
JimLast edited by carpedm9587; 05-06-2018, 04:30 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI am happy to discuss, but you are correct that the possibility that I am wrong does not cross my mind. If someone says to me, "is it possible that it is morally OK to see a black person as immoral because they are black and do culturally black things," I would say, "no, that is not possible." Likewise, it is not possible for me to see a homosexual as immoral because they are homosexual and engage in homosexual activities. Anyone can be immoral for any number of reasons, but it is not possible to be immoral because you love someone and are intimate with them, assuming we are talking about consenting adults.
It is common for people from your point of view to refuse to actually admit there is a difference, but that there is a difference is obvious. For example, there are Christians with same-sex attractions that chose to be celibate because they can't justify to themselves that to act on their impulses would be morally correct. There are in fact former members of the gay community that became fed up with the promiscuous nature of and emptiness they found in the gay lifestyle and simply made a choice to live out their lives only acting out sexual impulses within the bounds of hetero-sexual marriage. I know personally two people in the second category and have known one of them for over 40 years. Both are very good friends so i know it's not just some sort of short term cover or made up hopeful story. How we express our sexual desires is quite simply a choice. And it is our morality which ultimately drives that choice.
SO I reject fully your attempt to equate a discussion over the morality of acting on same-sex attraction and the issue of racial discrimination. Because I can fully accept and be friends with a gay person even if I believe acting on those sames-sex attractions is wrong and in exactly the same way i can be a friends with and be fully accepting of a person living with his girlfriend even though I believe sex before marriage is wrong.
I don't 'discriminate' against either person or either case. It's just that simple. The issue is the morality of the action itself.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes it is relevant. So to get along we must keep our mouths shut and accept all manner of depravity? Remember, this is our country too...
Originally posted by seer View PostYou might want to shoot for re-education camps, that would speed up the process.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI'm just going to bite off this bit right now. I do not assign a morality to having same-sex attraction. If a person loves a person of the opposite or same sex does not enter into the realm of morality until and unless it crosses into sexualized expression. I do not see a person with same-sex attraction as evil or necessarily immoral. The issue is strictly the morality of acting on those impulses. We all have sexual impulses we do not act on because they are wrong. If I happen to find a women attractive, I do not pursue her because I am married. My morality constrains my sexual impulse. As such, I don't think there is in fact any useful analogy at all which can be applied from the issue of racism. A black man IS a black man. No aspect of that is a choice. A person with same-sex attraction does not have to act on that attraction any more than I have to act on my strong attraction to a women. I chose to act or not to act based on the morality of the action. The same is true of a person with same-sex attraction. We all act on our sexual attractions based on our morality and our capacity for self-control. So the issue here is what is the morality of same-sex actions themselves - not the morality of being a person with same-sex attraction.
It is common for people from your point of view to refuse to actually admit there is a difference, but that there is a difference is obvious. For example, there are Christians with same-sex attractions that chose to be celibate because they can't justify to themselves that to act on their impulses would be morally correct. There are in fact former members of the gay community that became fed up with the promiscuous nature of and emptiness they found in the gay lifestyle and simply made a choice to live out their lives only acting out sexual impulses within the bounds of hetero-sexual marriage. I know personally two people in the second category and have known one of them for over 40 years. Both are very good friends so i know it's not just some sort of short term cover or made up hopeful story. How we express our sexual desires is quite simply a choice. And it is our morality which ultimately drives that choice.
SO I reject fully your attempt to equate a discussion over the morality of acting on same-sex attraction and the issue of racial discrimination. Because I can fully accept and be friends with a gay person even if I believe acting on those sames-sex attractions is wrong and in exactly the same way i can be a friends with and be fully accepting of a person living with his girlfriend even though I believe sex before marriage is wrong.
I don't 'discriminate' against either person or either case. It's just that simple. The issue is the morality of the action itself.
Jim
If I am right, which I believe I am, then there is no difference between racial prejudice and sexual orientation prejudice. If I am right, then there is no logic to telling a heterosexual that it is OK for them to marry and be sexually active, but then telling a same-sex couple it is NOT OK for them to marry and be sexually active. If I am right, love is love, and the specific sexual equipment of the two people in love is irrelevant - it has no moral content.
I told you, in my last post, that for us to make any headway, you are going to have to start by convincing me that a position that applies a different moral rule to heterosexuals than homosexuals is not a form of unjustified prejudice or discrimination. Your only path to doing that (that I can see) is to establish that homosexuality is not an intrinsic aspect of the person.
Would you agree?
Michel
ETA: It dawns on me there is a second path. If you accept that sexual orientation is "baked in," then somehow you are going to have to make a case that holding same-sex and opposite-sex couple to different moral standards is not an act of simple prejudice.Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-07-2018, 03:05 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo I think the heart of our disagreement is this: you see homosexuality as a casual inclination, like preferring pizza to hamburgers. It only becomes immoral when one acts on it. I see homosexuality as a fundamental aspect of the human person, as intrinsic to the person as race, ethnicity, or hair color. When I look at myself, I cannot say my heterosexual tendency is merely a "casual inclination." It is fundamental to who I am. I am attracted to women - I am not attracted to men. I cannot choose to be attracted to men. Heterosexuality is "baked in," so to speak. If that is true of me, then who am I to say that homosexuality is different to the homosexual? And the science is supporting that - both physical and psychological. It also aligns with almost 50 years of experience and friendship with people of all sexual orientations: gay, straight, bi, trans, etc.
To illustrate: Consider alcoholism and drunk driving. It is in fact true that some people inherit a propensity to addition to alcohol. Some people are less capable of resisting the effects of intoxication. And some people inherit a propensity to addition. Others have no such elements in their physical and mental makeup. But the law is that drunk driving is illegal. And the moral imperative is that we are to remain sober. The morality applies to all, regardless of the propensity to addition. And the law applies to all, regardless of their propensity to addition, physical capacity to resist intoxication, or their health status in terms of alcoholism. There is no 'discrimination' against alcoholics by imposing those laws, nor by announcing the moral imperative. But it would be valid to call it discrimination against people with a genetic propensity to addition if one extended your logic used in this discussion to addition to alcohol and laws against drunk driving.
In this case, there is a set of moral definitions associated with sexual behavior. These definitions are applied evenly to all people. Ones inclination to break the moral code or to adhere to it does not define what is moral or what is immoral. The definition of what is moral does not change, in this case, because of what sort of sexual acts on finds tempting. For example. The Roman Catholic Church defines masturbation as sinful. Some people are not tempted in that area. Others find it impossible to resist that temptation. The definition of whether that is immoral, the requirement to confess it to a priest, does not vary depending on the genetic or mental tendency to be tempted by that act or the individual's capacity for self-control.
I see no difference whatsoever between that and same-sex acts, which are defined as immoral by the traditional Christian faith. Some people find that prohibition more difficult to obey than others. But the moral directive applies to all people. And it is the act that is defined as sinful, independent of a person's tendency to be tempted by the sinful act.
If I am right, which I believe I am, then there is no difference between racial prejudice and sexual orientation prejudice. If I am right, then there is no logic to telling a heterosexual that it is OK for them to marry and be sexually active, but then telling a same-sex couple it is NOT OK for them to marry and be sexually active. If I am right, love is love, and the specific sexual equipment of the two people in love is irrelevant - it has no moral content.
But the basic principle is this. The Christian moral code as regards sexuality applies to all people, regardless of what tempts an individual person. That moral code defines same-sex acts as immoral. The sexual activity we engage in is a choice. We are required to chose no sexual activity before marriage. And we are not given licence in marriage to engage in any sexual act - certain acts remain immoral even in that context. So again, the moral code applies to all people evenly. Two heterosexual men engaging in a same-sex interaction are just as immoral in that code as two men who have homosexual attraction. Likewise Sodomy. Likewise pre-marital sex. If a same-sex man and a same-sex women have intercourse outside marriage, it is just as sinful as if a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman engage in intercourse outside of marriage. Likewise as it applies to pedophilia. Doesn't matter if the abuser is hetero-sexual or homo-sexual, and it doesn't matter how strong the temptation is for the individual person, or even whether there is a 'built-in' genetic tendency to that behavior. The moral code applies to all. And what is a temptation to an individual - per the discussion above - does not define what is moral, or even what is legal.
I told you, in my last post, that for us to make any headway, you are going to have to start by convincing me that a position that applies a different moral rule to heterosexuals than homosexuals is not a form of unjustified prejudice or discrimination. Your only path to doing that (that I can see) is to establish that homosexuality is not an intrinsic aspect of the person.
Would you agree?
Michel
ETA: It dawns on me there is a second path. If you accept that sexual orientation is "baked in," then somehow you are going to have to make a case that holding same-sex and opposite-sex couple to different moral standards is not an act of simple prejudice.
If we can come to an agreement in the basic logic, the basic principles - we can move on to discussing whether or not the moral code should be as it is. In my mind, that is the only place for debate. There is no discrimination involved in principle.
I will add this, because unfortunately it is necessary. It is very true that immoral people have taken the Christian teachings on sexual morality as license to discriminate and commit much evil against homosexual people. Michael, we are in absolute agreement THAT is evil. I am not advocating that sort of thing in this discussion. And if anything that sort of historical hostility pressures me to seriously consider the viability of those teachings in this area, However, this is an academic discussion of philosophy and religious morals and as such I am completely divorcing it from any emotional considerations. But it must be noted that the Christian response to ALL peoples everywhere is to be loving and merciful. And nothing I have said or will say should be taken to imply any sort of hostile, vindictive, or otherwise immoral action should be applied to homosexual people. Westboro Baptist Church or similar is NOT an expression of a Christian response to these issues, even if we take the historical position that same-sex actions are immoral.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 05-07-2018, 08:48 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo, you still are not quite getting it. Though your ETA below is closer. Sexual orientation is not a 'casual' inclination. That is not my point. That is not my argument. My argument is twofold. The first element is that moral ACTIONS are choices. The second is that morality, what is moral or not moral, is applied evenly to all people regardless of their basic inclination to obey or to violate that morality.
To illustrate: Consider alcoholism and drunk driving. It is in fact true that some people inherit a propensity to addition to alcohol. Some people are less capable of resisting the effects of intoxication. And some people inherit a propensity to addition. Others have no such elements in their physical and mental makeup. But the law is that drunk driving is illegal. And the moral imperative is that we are to remain sober. The morality applies to all, regardless of the propensity to addition. And the law applies to all, regardless of their propensity to addition, physical capacity to resist intoxication, or their health status in terms of alcoholism. There is no 'discrimination' against alcoholics by imposing those laws, nor by announcing the moral imperative. But it would be valid to call it discrimination against people with a genetic propensity to addition if one extended your logic used in this discussion to addition to alcohol and laws against drunk driving.
In this case, there is a set of moral definitions associated with sexual behavior. These definitions are applied evenly to all people. Ones inclination to break the moral code or to adhere to it does not define what is moral or what is immoral. The definition of what is moral does not change, in this case, because of what sort of sexual acts on finds tempting. For example. The Roman Catholic Church defines masturbation as sinful. Some people are not tempted in that area. Others find it impossible to resist that temptation. The definition of whether that is immoral, the requirement to confess it to a priest, does not vary depending on the genetic or mental tendency to be tempted by that act or the individual's capacity for self-control.
I see no difference whatsoever between that and same-sex acts, which are defined as immoral by the traditional Christian faith. Some people find that prohibition more difficult to obey than others. But the moral directive applies to all people. And it is the act that is defined as sinful, independent of a person's tendency to be tempted by the sinful act.
I don't believe you are right. And the reason is because what is moral regarding sexuality is not defined in terms of an individual or their specific sexual inclinations, but in terms of a set of actions that are either moral or immoral. The only possible argument I can see here is that marriage sanctifies certain sexual acts. But it doesn't sanctify all sexual acts. For example, Sodomy is regarded as immoral. And as far as I know it is regarded as immoral whether it is in the context of marriage or not. So any two people commiting sodomy, in marriage or not in marriage are commiting sin. So marriage does not sanctify all sexual acts. So one might try to argue that marriage could sanctify same-sex sexual acts, but as we see, it already exists that marriage does not sanctify all sexual acts. In fact, the act I mention is one that is common for male same-sex relationships.
But the basic principle is this. The Christian moral code as regards sexuality applies to all people, regardless of what tempts an individual person. That moral code defines same-sex acts as immoral. The sexual activity we engage in is a choice. We are required to chose no sexual activity before marriage. And we are not given licence in marriage to engage in any sexual act - certain acts remain immoral even in that context. So again, the moral code applies to all people evenly. Two heterosexual men engaging in a same-sex interaction are just as immoral in that code as two men who have homosexual attraction. Likewise Sodomy. Likewise pre-marital sex. If a same-sex man and a same-sex women have intercourse outside marriage, it is just as sinful as if a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman engage in intercourse outside of marriage. Likewise as it applies to pedophilia. Doesn't matter if the abuser is hetero-sexual or homo-sexual, and it doesn't matter how strong the temptation is for the individual person, or even whether there is a 'built-in' genetic tendency to that behavior. The moral code applies to all. And what is a temptation to an individual - per the discussion above - does not define what is moral, or even what is legal.
Your premise is incorrect. There is no different set of rules for different individuals. There is a common set of rules which applies to all individuals. The difference is in what is a temptation to a specific individual. And we do not make changes in a moral code to accommodate differences of the propensity of an individual to violate the moral code. Because a sinful act tempts me and not you does not make the act sinful for you but not for me. It is sinful for both of us. I am just more likely to struggle with avoiding that sinful act more than you are.
See above.
If we can come to an agreement in the basic logic, the basic principles - we can move on to discussing whether or not the moral code should be as it is. In my mind, that is the only place for debate. There is no discrimination involved in principle.
I will add this, because unfortunately it is necessary. It is very true that immoral people have taken the Christian teachings on sexual morality as license to discriminate and commit much evil against homosexual people. Michael, we are in absolute agreement THAT is evil. I am not advocating that sort of thing in this discussion. And if anything that sort of historical hostility pressures me to seriously consider the viability of those teachings in this area, However, this is an academic discussion of philosophy and religious morals and as such I am completely divorcing it from any emotional considerations. But it must be noted that the Christian response to ALL peoples everywhere is to be loving and merciful. And nothing I have said or will say should be taken to imply any sort of hostile, vindictive, or otherwise immoral action should be applied to homosexual people. Westboro Baptist Church or similar is NOT an expression of a Christian response to these issues, even if we take the historical position that same-sex actions are immoral.
Jim
Your attempt to position homosexuality as akin to alcoholism speaks volumes. Alcoholism is a disease. Homosexuality is not. Homosexuality is merely a different sexual orientation. And your rules about sodomy simply make no sense to me. What two people do with one another in their intimate moments is between them and morality is simply not an issue. Morality, with respect to sex, comes to play when one person objectifies another. Other than that, I see no reason to place boundaries on how two people sexually pleasure one another.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOnly a homosexual or bisexual is going to have same-sex attractions, by definition.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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