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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhat goods or services will the government be selling on which to make the profit to pay these "employees"? And what will these "employees" be doing?
But in general, the government could basically provide jobs doing almost anything. Planting trees, manufacturing basic goods, picking up rubbish, mowing lawns etc. Economically, the government doesn't really need to make much money from selling goods produced by these people for it to be worth it, because if they weren't employed the government would be paying them welfare which would cost a relatively similar amount anyway.
In the US the government employs ~17% of the workforce which is pretty low for OECD countries (21% average), with Sweden at 30% and Norway at 36%. Given the US unemployment rate is ~4%, then assuming that half of the unemployed people voluntarily take the offer of basic employment, the US government would go from employing ~17% to ~19% of the workforce, not a huge difference when international rates are compared. If and when certain manufacturing/road building/gardening companies started by the government reached self-sufficiency they could each be spun off as private enterprises. It strikes me as a good way of planting seed businesses that the private sector can then grow.
I also like the aesthetic and conceptual symmetry of the government already acting as a "lender of last resort" for the banks, and potentially now acting as "employer of last resort" for the workers. It's a nice safety-net-around-the-edges: When things are working fine, private industry ticks over fine and people don't need the government and it stays out of the way, but when things are going wrong, the government is there is give the necessary nudge to prevent disaster and help things get back on track.Last edited by Starlight; 04-25-2018, 09:01 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostDuring the Great Depression, FDR had them building roads. There seem to be quite a lot of roads in the US which need fixing up, and quite a desire to spend a lot of money on infrastructure development, so that seems generally a good match.
But in general, the government could basically provide jobs doing almost anything. Planting trees, manufacturing basic goods, picking up rubbish, mowing lawns etc. Economically, the government doesn't really need to make much money from selling goods produced by these people for it to be worth it, because if they weren't employed the government would be paying them welfare which would cost a relatively similar amount anyway.
In the US the government employs ~17% of the workforce which is pretty low for OECD countries (21% average), with Sweden at 30% and Norway at 36%. Given the US unemployment rate is ~4%, then assuming that half of the unemployed people voluntarily take the offer of basic employment, the US government would go from employing ~17% to ~19% of the workforce, not a huge difference when international rates are compared. If and when certain manufacturing/road building/gardening companies started by the government reached self-sufficiency they could each be spun off as private enterprises. It strikes me as a good way of planting seed businesses that the private sector can then grow.
I also like the aesthetic and conceptual symmetry of the government already acting as a "lender of last resort" for the banks, and potentially now acting as "employer of last resort" for the workers. It's a nice safety-net-around-the-edges: When things are working fine, private industry ticks over fine and people don't need the government and it stays out of the way, but when things are going wrong, the government is there is give the necessary nudge to prevent disaster and help things get back on track.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThere are SO MANY problems with this post, I don't even know where to begin, so I'll just leave you to your fantasy."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostDuring the Great Depression, FDR had them building roads. There seem to be quite a lot of roads in the US which need fixing up, and quite a desire to spend a lot of money on infrastructure development, so that seems generally a good match.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI think the last Administration tried the "shovel ready jobs" route and even later chuckled about how they never really existed -- and yet all the money was still spent.
I would comment though there is potentially an important difference between: 1) Short-term stimulus programs of the kind Obama wanted to try in order to undo the recession rapidly ("Find 10 million jobs for people with shovels! Stat! Get them all working ASAP!") where there is urgency associated with rapidly trying to scale up the stimulus and the scale it down again after a couple of years; as compared to 2) a permanent program the exists providing jobs for unemployed people which doesn't typically fluctuate rapidly in the number of people it's providing jobs for (it's not expected to deal with recessions but rather for 'normal' economic times like the present) so year to year the number of people it's providing jobs for might fluctuate by 10% (rather than the ten million percent that a short-term anti-recession program tries to deal with) so more sensible medium and long-term planning can be done."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostDuring the Great Depression, FDR had them building roads. There seem to be quite a lot of roads in the US which need fixing up, and quite a desire to spend a lot of money on infrastructure development, so that seems generally a good match.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostThey could build a big wall...
Honestly, I would be completely okay with that. They wanted a wall? They can build it! I would be even quite happy to have them get paid minimum wage while they built their stupid pointless monument to ignorance. I would even give an award to whoever of them could make the wall the biggest. If they can shovel it high enough to stop airplanes from bringing Mexicans across the border I'll pay them double."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostYou'll have to clarify what 'business-friendly' policies you are thinking of. The only major piece of legislation the Republicans have passed has been the tax scam that gave billions of dollars in tax breaks to multinationals and rocketed up the national deficit and the debt.
A good example of a policy that might help with employment substantially is Bernie Sanders' new proposal that the government act as an 'employer of last resort' where it would offer minimum wage jobs to anyone who wanted them. That seems likely to me to reduce unemployment.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThere are SO MANY problems with this post, I don't even know where to begin, so I'll just leave you to your fantasy.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThat's fine, I don't expect you to be able to come up with objections instantly, so take time to think about it. Also, bear in mind, you don't need to object to something just because I support it.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Postwhat he proposes sounds great in theory, but every time it has ever been attempted throughout history has always ended in disaster, at least for the citizens.
I assume you're just doing your normal idiotic and ignorant rant on general principles against all things that strike you as vaguely left wing, and that you aren't actually talking about anything of relevance.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd Sanders is about as ignorant as you, talk about national deficit and the debt...
A back of the envelope calculation suggests that the government providing jobs to the unemployed might cost somewhere in the vicinity of that $80 billion per year... that the congress was perfectly happy to completely waste on ludicrously over the top "defense" spending. I guess it comes down to whether you prefer your taxpayer money gets used to gratuitously slaughter people in the middle east and fund overpaid defense contractors sucking at the taxpayer teat like Bill the Cat, or whether you'd prefer a few million currently unemployed Americans were provided with jobs.Last edited by Starlight; 04-26-2018, 07:56 AM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThe Republicans this year increased defense spending by $80 billion without blinking. Since that is money being basically set on fire (or exploded, if you prefer that metaphor), I would have thought people who pretended to be concerned about debt and deficit would be screaming about it. But no, apparently setting fire to $619 billion a year in "defense" spending just wasn't enough for them and they had to up it to $700 billion a year of taxpayer money being wasted.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThat's fine, I don't expect you to be able to come up with objections instantly, so take time to think about it. Also, bear in mind, you don't need to object to something just because I support it."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThe Republicans this year increased defense spending by $80 billion without blinking. Since that is money being basically set on fire (or exploded, if you prefer that metaphor), I would have thought people who pretended to be concerned about debt and deficit would be screaming about it. But no, apparently setting fire to $619 billion a year in "defense" spending just wasn't enough for them and they had to up it to $700 billion a year of taxpayer money being wasted.
A back of the envelope calculation suggests that the government providing jobs to the unemployed might cost somewhere in the vicinity of that $80 billion per year... that the congress was perfectly happy to completely waste on ludicrously over the top "defense" spending. I guess it comes down to whether you prefer your taxpayer money gets used to gratuitously slaughter people in the middle east and fund overpaid defense contractors sucking at the taxpayer teat like Bill the Cat, or whether you'd prefer a few million currently unemployed Americans were provided with jobs.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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