Right? I may or may not have known his quote was...inaccurate...
Announcement
Collapse
Civics 101 Guidelines
Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less
A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence
Collapse
X
-
"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
-
If you think that's bad, my original post said, "in the immoral words of Jurassic Park..."The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostYes, again, I concede it has been effective for reducing GUN mass killings, but the OVERALL mass killing rate has stayed the same. As Carp said:
Here is my suspicion: that this comparison compares ONLY the gun-related mass-killings before the law was passed with ALL mass killings after the law was passed. I'd like to know for sure that the first number is ALL mass killings before the passing of the law compared to ALL mass killings after the passing of the law, to determine if the killings shifted to another venue (as this claim implies), or there actually has been no change in the other classes of mass killings and the gun law DID have an effect not only on gun-related mass killings, but mass killings overall.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by Zymologist View PostJeff Goldblum might be the only human who can make "uh" not sound stupid.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
I freely admit, I did not verify all of this data from this Wikipedia article. I simply used it. The ones that did not say "shooting" I looked up to see what form it was.op End Shootings June 1987 Top End, Northern Territory 5 Spree killing by Joseph Schwab over a five-day period. Shot dead by police. Hoddle Street massacre 9 August 1987 Clifton Hill, Victoria 7 A Spree shooting by Julian Knight. Canley Vale Huynh family murders 10 October 1987 Canley Vale, New South Wales 5 Rampage killing by John Tran, who shot dead five members of a family. Queen Street massacre 8 December 1987 Melbourne, Victoria 8 A spree shooting/ by Frank Vitkovic. Oenpelli shootings 25 September 1988 Oenpelli, Northern Territory 6 0 Rampage killing by Dennis Rostron, shooting six members of his family at a remote Arnhem Land outstation in Oenpelli.[9] Surry Hills shootings 30 August 1990 Surry Hills, New South Wales 5 7 A spree shooting by Paul Anthony Evers who killed five people and injured seven with a 12 gauge pump-action shotgunat a public housing precinct in Surry Hills before surrendering to police.[10] Strathfield massacre 17 August 1991 Strathfield, New South Wales 7 A spree shooting/ by Wade Frankum. Central Coast massacre 27 October 1992 Terrigal, New South Wales 6 A spree shooting by Malcolm George Baker. Greenough Family Massacre 21 February 1993 Greenough, Western Australia 4 0 William Patrick Mitchell (Bill Mitchell) murdered Karen MacKenzie and her three children with an axe at their remote rural property in Greenough, Western Australia. 1993 Cangai siege March 1993 Cangai, New South Wales 5 0 Leonard Leabeater, Robert Steele and Raymond Bassett went on a nine-day rampage resulting in their taking hostages in a siege in a farmhouse at Hanging Rock Station in Cangai. Hillcrest murders 25 January 1996 Hillcrest, Queensland 6 0 Rampage killing by Peter May, who shot dead six members of his family before killing himself.[11] Port Arthur massacre 28 April 1996 Port Arthur, Tasmania 35 24 A spree shooting by Martin Bryant. Murder suicide 28 June 1997 Richmond, Tasmania 5 Peter Shoobridge cut the throats of his four daughters whilst they slept then took his own life with a rifle after cutting off one of his hands with an axe.[12] Wright St Bikie murders 8 October 1999 Adelaide, Australia 3 7 Hell's Angels feud (mass shooting).[13] Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel fire 23 June 2000 Childers, Queensland 15 unknown Arson attack by Robert Paul Long, which killed 15 international backpackers. Monash University shooting 21 October 2002 Melbourne, Victoria 2 5 Mass shooting attack by Huan Yun "Allen" Xiang. Singh family murders 22 April 2003 Brisbane, Australia 3 Triple homicide of Singh siblings by the eldest sisters boyfirend, Max Sica.[14] Poulson family murders 15 September 2003 Wilberforce, New South Wales 4 Four-year-old Marilyn, one-year-old Sebastian and their grandfather Peter were murdered by Phitack Kongsom, who then killed himself.[15] Churchill Fire 7 February 2009 Churchill, Victoria 10 unknown Arson attack by Brendan Sokaluk that killed ten people, during the Black Saturday bushfires period. Lin family murders 18 July 2009 North Epping, New South Wales 5 unknown Blunt instrument attack that killed five members of the Lin family. 2011 Hectorville siege 29 April 2011 Hectorville, South Australia 3 3 Siege attack where Anthony Carbo murdered three people and injured three more including two police officers. Quakers Hill nursing home fire 18 November 2011 Sydney, NSW 11 Arson attack by Roger Kingsley Dean, a nurse, which killed 11 people. Rozelle fire murders 4 September 2014 Rozelle, New South Wales 3 2 Arson murder by Adeel Khan which killed three and injured another two.[16] Hunt family murders 9 September 2014 Lockhart, New South Wales 5 0 A mass shooting and familicide by Geoff Hunt who killed his wife and three children before turning the gun on himself. Wedderburn shooting 23 October 2014 Wedderburn, Victoria 3 0 A mass shooting and siege by Ian Francis Jamieson who shot a husband and wife, after stabbing their son to death. 2014 Sydney hostage crisis 15 - 16 December 2014 Sydney, NSW 3 1 Siege. A lone gunman, Man Haron Monis, held hostage twenty customers and eight employees of a LindtMartin Place for 16 hours. The NSW Police Tactical Operations Unit shot Monis dead, after he executed a hostage. In the exchange, one person was hit by police bullet fragments, causing accidental death. Cairns child killings 19 December 2014 Cairns, Queensland 8 1 (self-inflicted by perpetrator) Stabbing attack and Familicide. Eight children aged 18 months to 15 years killed. Thirty-seven-year-old woman also found injured. The woman, Raina Mersane Ina Thaiday, was later charged with the murder of the children, seven of whom were hers, plus her niece.[17] January 2017 Melbourne car attack 20 January 2017 Melbourne, Victoria 6 30 Vehicular attack. Dimitrious Gargasoulas allegedly drove a Holden Commodore into Bourke St Mall, resulting in the deaths of six people and injuring 30+ others. Osmington shooting 11 May 2018 Osmington, Western Australia 7 0 A mass shooting, with three adults and four children killed. A grandfather shot his four grandchildren at their home, his daughter, his wife, and then himself.[18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia
ETA: As you can see, I did not skew the numbers in the way you insinuated I did.
Last edited by Littlejoe; 05-22-2018, 11:32 AM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostI freely admit, I did not verify all of this data from this Wikipedia article. I simply used it. The ones that did not say "shooting" I looked up to see what form it was.op End Shootings June 1987 Top End, Northern Territory 5 Spree killing by Joseph Schwab over a five-day period. Shot dead by police. Hoddle Street massacre 9 August 1987 Clifton Hill, Victoria 7 A Spree shooting by Julian Knight. Canley Vale Huynh family murders 10 October 1987 Canley Vale, New South Wales 5 Rampage killing by John Tran, who shot dead five members of a family. Queen Street massacre 8 December 1987 Melbourne, Victoria 8 A spree shooting/ by Frank Vitkovic. Oenpelli shootings 25 September 1988 Oenpelli, Northern Territory 6 0 Rampage killing by Dennis Rostron, shooting six members of his family at a remote Arnhem Land outstation in Oenpelli.[9] Surry Hills shootings 30 August 1990 Surry Hills, New South Wales 5 7 A spree shooting by Paul Anthony Evers who killed five people and injured seven with a 12 gauge pump-action shotgunat a public housing precinct in Surry Hills before surrendering to police.[10] Strathfield massacre 17 August 1991 Strathfield, New South Wales 7 A spree shooting/ by Wade Frankum. Central Coast massacre 27 October 1992 Terrigal, New South Wales 6 A spree shooting by Malcolm George Baker. Greenough Family Massacre 21 February 1993 Greenough, Western Australia 4 0 William Patrick Mitchell (Bill Mitchell) murdered Karen MacKenzie and her three children with an axe at their remote rural property in Greenough, Western Australia. 1993 Cangai siege March 1993 Cangai, New South Wales 5 0 Leonard Leabeater, Robert Steele and Raymond Bassett went on a nine-day rampage resulting in their taking hostages in a siege in a farmhouse at Hanging Rock Station in Cangai. Hillcrest murders 25 January 1996 Hillcrest, Queensland 6 0 Rampage killing by Peter May, who shot dead six members of his family before killing himself.[11] Port Arthur massacre 28 April 1996 Port Arthur, Tasmania 35 24 A spree shooting by Martin Bryant. Murder suicide 28 June 1997 Richmond, Tasmania 5 Peter Shoobridge cut the throats of his four daughters whilst they slept then took his own life with a rifle after cutting off one of his hands with an axe.[12] Wright St Bikie murders 8 October 1999 Adelaide, Australia 3 7 Hell's Angels feud (mass shooting).[13] Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel fire 23 June 2000 Childers, Queensland 15 unknown Arson attack by Robert Paul Long, which killed 15 international backpackers. Monash University shooting 21 October 2002 Melbourne, Victoria 2 5 Mass shooting attack by Huan Yun "Allen" Xiang. Singh family murders 22 April 2003 Brisbane, Australia 3 Triple homicide of Singh siblings by the eldest sisters boyfirend, Max Sica.[14] Poulson family murders 15 September 2003 Wilberforce, New South Wales 4 Four-year-old Marilyn, one-year-old Sebastian and their grandfather Peter were murdered by Phitack Kongsom, who then killed himself.[15] Churchill Fire 7 February 2009 Churchill, Victoria 10 unknown Arson attack by Brendan Sokaluk that killed ten people, during the Black Saturday bushfires period. Lin family murders 18 July 2009 North Epping, New South Wales 5 unknown Blunt instrument attack that killed five members of the Lin family. 2011 Hectorville siege 29 April 2011 Hectorville, South Australia 3 3 Siege attack where Anthony Carbo murdered three people and injured three more including two police officers. Quakers Hill nursing home fire 18 November 2011 Sydney, NSW 11 Arson attack by Roger Kingsley Dean, a nurse, which killed 11 people. Rozelle fire murders 4 September 2014 Rozelle, New South Wales 3 2 Arson murder by Adeel Khan which killed three and injured another two.[16] Hunt family murders 9 September 2014 Lockhart, New South Wales 5 0 A mass shooting and familicide by Geoff Hunt who killed his wife and three children before turning the gun on himself. Wedderburn shooting 23 October 2014 Wedderburn, Victoria 3 0 A mass shooting and siege by Ian Francis Jamieson who shot a husband and wife, after stabbing their son to death. 2014 Sydney hostage crisis 15 - 16 December 2014 Sydney, NSW 3 1 Siege. A lone gunman, Man Haron Monis, held hostage twenty customers and eight employees of a LindtMartin Place for 16 hours. The NSW Police Tactical Operations Unit shot Monis dead, after he executed a hostage. In the exchange, one person was hit by police bullet fragments, causing accidental death. Cairns child killings 19 December 2014 Cairns, Queensland 8 1 (self-inflicted by perpetrator) Stabbing attack and Familicide. Eight children aged 18 months to 15 years killed. Thirty-seven-year-old woman also found injured. The woman, Raina Mersane Ina Thaiday, was later charged with the murder of the children, seven of whom were hers, plus her niece.[17] January 2017 Melbourne car attack 20 January 2017 Melbourne, Victoria 6 30 Vehicular attack. Dimitrious Gargasoulas allegedly drove a Holden Commodore into Bourke St Mall, resulting in the deaths of six people and injuring 30+ others. Osmington shooting 11 May 2018 Osmington, Western Australia 7 0 A mass shooting, with three adults and four children killed. A grandfather shot his four grandchildren at their home, his daughter, his wife, and then himself.[18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia
ETA: As you can see, I did not skew the numbers in the way you insinuated I did.
Your response just raises a whole other list of questions. How do you know this list is complete? Are you comparing raw numbers or the actual rate. After all, you have listings here for 9 years prior to the 1996 law and 22 years since. And what is the actual numerical breakdown? (Non-Gun rampages before 1996, Gun-rampages before 1996, Non-Gun rampages since 1996, Gun-rampages since 1996)? Since you looked up the ones that are not identified (kudos for that step), you must have those numbers?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostFirst, I was not suggesting that YOU had skewed the data, because I had no idea where the data came from. I was suggesting it was possible the data might have been skewed. It happens a lot and then the results get quoted here when the data does not actually support the claim. Any analyst worth his salt is going to ask for sources, so if you're going to quote statistics, get used to it.
Your response just raises a whole other list of questions. How do you know this list is complete? Are you comparing raw numbers or the actual rate. After all, you have listings here for 9 years prior to the 1996 law and 22 years since. And what is the actual numerical breakdown? (Non-Gun rampages before 1996, Gun-rampages before 1996, Non-Gun rampages since 1996, Gun-rampages since 1996)? Since you looked up the ones that are not identified (kudos for that step), you must have those numbers?
I'll have to get back to you on the numbers. I only looked at numbers of people killed by both and by shootings alone, I didn't look at rate per se.Campsie murders 24 September 1981 Campsie, New South Wales 5 0 Rampage killing by Fouad Daoud, who shot dead five members of his family before killing himself.[6] Inland Motel murders 18 August 1983 Uluru, Northern Territory 5 16 Vehicular attack by Douglas Crabbe, who drove a truck into the bar of the Inland Motel after being refused service.[7] Wahroonga murders 1 June 1984 Wahroonga, New South Wales 5 0 Rampage killing by John Brandon, who shot dead five members of his family before killing himself.[8] Milperra massacre 2 September 1984 Milperra, New South Wales 7 28 Shootout between two rival motorcycle gangs. One bystander was among those killed in the incident. Top End Shootings June 1987 Top End, Northern Territory 5 Spree killing by Joseph Schwab over a five-day period. Shot dead by police. Hoddle Street massacre 9 August 1987 Clifton Hill, Victoria 7 A Spree shooting by Julian Knight. Canley Vale Huynh family murders 10 October 1987 Canley Vale, New South Wales 5 Rampage killing by John Tran, who shot dead five members of a family. Queen Street massacre 8 December 1987 Melbourne, Victoria 8 A spree shooting/ by Frank Vitkovic. Oenpelli shootings 25 September 1988 Oenpelli, Northern Territory 6 0 Rampage killing by Dennis Rostron, shooting six members of his family at a remote Arnhem Land outstation in Oenpelli.[9] Surry Hills shootings 30 August 1990 Surry Hills, New South Wales 5 7 A spree shooting by Paul Anthony Evers who killed five people and injured seven with a 12 gauge pump-action shotgunat a public housing precinct in Surry Hills before surrendering to police.[10] Strathfield massacre 17 August 1991 Strathfield, New South Wales 7 A spree shooting/ by Wade Frankum. Central Coast massacre 27 October 1992 Terrigal, New South Wales 6 A spree shooting by Malcolm George Baker. Greenough Family Massacre 21 February 1993 Greenough, Western Australia 4 0 William Patrick Mitchell (Bill Mitchell) murdered Karen MacKenzie and her three children with an axe at their remote rural property in Greenough, Western Australia. 1993 Cangai siege March 1993 Cangai, New South Wales 5 0 Leonard Leabeater, Robert Steele and Raymond Bassett went on a nine-day rampage resulting in their taking hostages in a siege in a farmhouse at Hanging Rock Station in Cangai. Hillcrest murders 25 January 1996 Hillcrest, Queensland 6 0 Rampage killing by Peter May, who shot dead six members of his family before killing himself.[11] Port Arthur massacre 28 April 1996 Port Arthur, Tasmania 35 24 A spree shooting by Martin Bryant.
Also, how do I know this is all of them?...I don't know. That's why I admitted I did not verify the article. You are welcome to make sure the article didn't miss any.
ETA: Here is essentially what I gleaned from the data here as presented in another post by me in another thread:
The facts bear out that mass SHOOTINGS have decreased by quite a lot. Using the figures from this Wikipedia article, in the 21 years prior to the ban there were 117 people slain in mass killings (1975 - 1996). Of those, 112 were mass shootings.
In the 21 years (plus a couple of months) since the gun ban, (1996 - Present) there have been 113 people slain in mass killings, but only 27 were mass shootings. However, the mass killing rate is statistically flat. How is the gun ban supposed to have helped? As rogue said, are they any less dead because they were not killed with a gun? I would much rather die of a gun shot wound than to die in a fire, burning to death...Last edited by Littlejoe; 05-22-2018, 12:00 PM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
Comment
-
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostSorry, I miss-windowed...that IS my fault. I should have went back to 1970's. However, I didn't use a the wrong date in my "analysis". Here is the correct window for the correct dates before the gun ban.
I'll have to get back to you on the numbers. I only looked at numbers of people killed by both and by shootings alone, I didn't look at rate per se.Campsie murders 24 September 1981 Campsie, New South Wales 5 0 Rampage killing by Fouad Daoud, who shot dead five members of his family before killing himself.[6] Inland Motel murders 18 August 1983 Uluru, Northern Territory 5 16 Vehicular attack by Douglas Crabbe, who drove a truck into the bar of the Inland Motel after being refused service.[7] Wahroonga murders 1 June 1984 Wahroonga, New South Wales 5 0 Rampage killing by John Brandon, who shot dead five members of his family before killing himself.[8] Milperra massacre 2 September 1984 Milperra, New South Wales 7 28 Shootout between two rival motorcycle gangs. One bystander was among those killed in the incident. Top End Shootings June 1987 Top End, Northern Territory 5 Spree killing by Joseph Schwab over a five-day period. Shot dead by police. Hoddle Street massacre 9 August 1987 Clifton Hill, Victoria 7 A Spree shooting by Julian Knight. Canley Vale Huynh family murders 10 October 1987 Canley Vale, New South Wales 5 Rampage killing by John Tran, who shot dead five members of a family. Queen Street massacre 8 December 1987 Melbourne, Victoria 8 A spree shooting/ by Frank Vitkovic. Oenpelli shootings 25 September 1988 Oenpelli, Northern Territory 6 0 Rampage killing by Dennis Rostron, shooting six members of his family at a remote Arnhem Land outstation in Oenpelli.[9] Surry Hills shootings 30 August 1990 Surry Hills, New South Wales 5 7 A spree shooting by Paul Anthony Evers who killed five people and injured seven with a 12 gauge pump-action shotgunat a public housing precinct in Surry Hills before surrendering to police.[10] Strathfield massacre 17 August 1991 Strathfield, New South Wales 7 A spree shooting/ by Wade Frankum. Central Coast massacre 27 October 1992 Terrigal, New South Wales 6 A spree shooting by Malcolm George Baker. Greenough Family Massacre 21 February 1993 Greenough, Western Australia 4 0 William Patrick Mitchell (Bill Mitchell) murdered Karen MacKenzie and her three children with an axe at their remote rural property in Greenough, Western Australia. 1993 Cangai siege March 1993 Cangai, New South Wales 5 0 Leonard Leabeater, Robert Steele and Raymond Bassett went on a nine-day rampage resulting in their taking hostages in a siege in a farmhouse at Hanging Rock Station in Cangai. Hillcrest murders 25 January 1996 Hillcrest, Queensland 6 0 Rampage killing by Peter May, who shot dead six members of his family before killing himself.[11] Port Arthur massacre 28 April 1996 Port Arthur, Tasmania 35 24 A spree shooting by Martin Bryant.
Also, how do I know this is all of them?...I don't know. That's why I admitted I did not verify the article. You are welcome to make sure the article didn't miss any.
Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostETA: Here is essentially what I gleaned from the data here as presented in another post by me in another thread:
The facts bear out that mass SHOOTINGS have decreased by quite a lot. Using the figures from this Wikipedia article, in the 21 years prior to the ban there were 117 people slain in mass killings (1975 - 1996). Of those, 112 were mass shootings.
In the 21 years (plus a couple of months) since the gun ban, (1996 - Present) there have been 113 people slain in mass killings, but only 27 were mass shootings. However, the mass killing rate is statistically flat. How is the gun ban supposed to have helped? As rogue said, are they any less dead because they were not killed with a gun? I would much rather die of a gun shot wound than to die in a fire, burning to death...Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-22-2018, 12:10 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI, uh... can to...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostBut if you use "to" instead of "too", it do make your "uh" less intelligetish.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOh shoot me now....The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'd have to shoot me, to.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by seer, Yesterday, 11:40 AM
|
2 responses
32 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Diogenes
Yesterday, 03:28 PM
|
||
Started by CivilDiscourse, Yesterday, 06:30 AM
|
15 responses
80 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by seanD
Yesterday, 04:20 PM
|
||
Started by Cow Poke, 06-03-2024, 11:24 AM
|
25 responses
145 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cow Poke
Yesterday, 04:13 PM
|
||
Started by carpedm9587, 06-03-2024, 09:13 AM
|
48 responses
257 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by eider
Today, 01:14 AM
|
||
Started by Cow Poke, 06-02-2024, 09:15 AM
|
31 responses
150 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Yesterday, 08:12 PM
|
Comment