A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

[carpedm9587]

Since the second most popular method of suicide is suffocation/hanging and that is not particularly easy or pleasant, I think it is safe to say that if they don't have a gun they will go to another method. People who want to kill themselves use whatever method is handy once they make the decision. They don't usually plan it out or dwell on it. They just reach a point and do it.

Sparko - you may think it is "safe to say," and your gut may tell you it is true. But you don't have data saying that is the case. You are missing information like, "how many people set out to hang themselves and changed their mind before they actually did?" and "How many people who set out shoot themselves and cannot (bad ammo, gun jam, etc.) go on to kill themselves via another means, and so forth. We are all guessing. We lack actual data and studies to justify pretty much any of our guesses. As a consequence, we are all flinging unsubstantiated claims around that lack any true basis in impartial research.

[carpedm9587]

So Trump seems to be ticking off Republicans and making Democrats happy with his comments on Gun Control.

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Trump: 'Take the guns first, go through due process second'http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...process-second

Unfortunately - what he says on one day he reverses on the next - as soon as he sees which way the wind is blowing in his base. Sit tight. He'll probably reverse himself tomorrow.

[guacamole]

So Trump seems to be ticking off Republicans and making Democrats happy with his comments on Gun Control.

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Trump: 'Take the guns first, go through due process second'http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...process-second

Basically, telling someone to violate due process is telling them to break the law. So, isn't this what gun owners are concerned about? If the government can sanction confiscation in some instances, why not in other instances? Are gun owners going to leave it up to the government to decide who is crazy and dangerous and who is not? That's the point of due process, no?

[Mountain Man]

MM - my hoope was for a respectful conversation. Can we leave words like "insane" and your mocking emojis off the table, please.

I was not aware that being respectful excluded candidness and honesty.

I also note that you completely avoided my argument, which makes me suspect that you don't have a good answer.

[Sparko]

Basically, telling someone to violate due process is telling them to break the law. So, isn't this what gun owners are concerned about? If the government can sanction confiscation in some instances, why not in other instances? Are gun owners going to leave it up to the government to decide who is crazy and dangerous and who is not? That's the point of due process, no?

pretty much. Trump has a way of letting his mouth run way ahead of his brain.

[carpedm9587]

I was not aware that being respectful excluded candidness and honesty.

It is possible to be candid, honest, and respectful. Please try.

I also note that you completely avoided my argument, which makes me suspect that you don't have a good answer.

You were responding to Adrift. I have already posted on this topic.

[Cow Poke]

pretty much. Trump has a way of letting his mouth run way ahead of his brain.

There could have been one extra step.... get an emergency order from a judge - not hard to do, I just recently had to do that for an EDP - and take away the guns (that can be done in the same day) THEN continue the due process.

The "emergency order" would be the beginning of the due process.

[Mountain Man]

You were responding to Adrift.

I was quite definitely responding to you. I have no idea how Adrift's name got attached to the post, but I've corrected it.

[carpedm9587]

pretty much. Trump has a way of letting his mouth run way ahead of his brain.

And his fingers...

[Sparko]

And his fingers...

To tell the truth I think his tweets are a lot more calculated than people think. A lot of it is him trolling the MSM. He knows he can take control of the news cycle with just a simple tweet.

[carpedm9587]

I was quite definitely responding to you. I have no idea how Adrift's name got attached to the post, but I've corrected it.

Then my response is: almost anything can be used to kill. A hammer. A shish-kabob skewer. A broken piece of glass.

Then there are things that were designed to kill: a sword, certain types of knives, guns, bombs, etc.

The latter should be treated differently than the former. Cutting tools do not have the kind of ability to project lethal force that a gun or crossbow would, so the restrictions should be correspondingly different. What exactly those restrictions should be is a matter for study. Should they be required to be secured? Should there be different penalties governing their use? I have no idea. We don't have the data to make those kinds of recommendations, as far as I know.

[carpedm9587]

To tell the truth I think his tweets are a lot more calculated than people think. A lot of it is him trolling the MSM. He knows he can take control of the news cycle with just a simple tweet.

Agreed. I don't think he is an idiot. I think he is a media savant - and a child in almost every other way.

[Sparko]

Agreed. I don't think he is an idiot. I think he is a media savant - and a child in almost every other way.

What Trump said about his use of twitter during the campaign:

[Jedidiah]

I missed the "unborn" in the sentence, so thanks for pointing that out. But abortion is not related to our discussion about guns.

The point was connected at one point (don't ask me to find it - it might even have been by me in another thread) with the "If abortion is protected by a right to privacy why is gun ownership not at least as well protected."

[carpedm9587]

What Trump said about his use of twitter during the campaign:

I'm aware of Trump's position with respect to Twitter. I do not think use or nonuse of Twitter by a leader is good or bad intrinsically. I think Trump's use of it is illadvised (for him). Frankly, I hope he keeps using it. Most of the times he does, he fires up his base - and along with them the vast array of people who are working to defeat him. Trump is the primary thing keeping the left energized right now. His comments about guns may well be an attempt to try to tempt some of the left into his camp. Unfortunately, every time he tries to slide to the left, his base reacts.

Rock>Trump<Hard Place