A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

[Darth Executor]

https://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/co...oss-countries/[/cite]
It also seems that Australia's celebrated gun ban didn't necessarily have the results you would expect:

Source: CPRC testimony on gun control before the Australian Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee

The number of people who owned guns increased from 1.2 million Australian adults in 1997 to 1.97 million in 2015. At the same time, the number of guns increased even more from 2.5 to 5.8 million. Both of these were much greater than the increase in the population from 18.52 to 23.79 million.

https://crimeresearch.org/2014/10/cp...ces-committee/

© Copyright Original Source

So whatever changes you see in crime statistics, it wasn't because there were fewer guns and fewer gun owners.


He can "suggest" whatever he wants. There's a difference between wanting something to be true, and being able to prove that something is true. When looked at holistically, the rate of gun sales and ownership does not move in lockstep with crime and suicide statistics.

Guns are not the problem.

I was looking for statistics on gun ownership, looks like these put the final nail in the coffin. Adrift's gonna have to do a lot more than namedrop some guy named Simon Chapman to explain how gun control reduced suicide rates if actual gun ownership went up.

[Darth Executor]

Gun ownership is not a 'limited' right. It is a constitutional right. And you are completely wrong on this.

What's the point of having a gun for self defense if you're gonna dismantle it into different pieces? Real life isn't Hexen.

[Adrift]

More like a slight decrease, but I guess even that's significant if you have an agenda to push.

I'm not the only one who finds the decline significant.

And there's the inconvenient truth that suicide rates in Australia have been on the rise for the past several years. How does that fit into your anti-gun narrative?

Covered in post #398.

The problem with statistics is that things can get messy, especially when trying to compare one country to another.

Source: Comparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries

https://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/co...oss-countries/

© Copyright Original Source

It also seems that Australia's celebrated gun ban didn't necessarily have the results you would expect:

Source: CPRC testimony on gun control before the Australian Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee

The number of people who owned guns increased from 1.2 million Australian adults in 1997 to 1.97 million in 2015. At the same time, the number of guns increased even more from 2.5 to 5.8 million. Both of these were much greater than the increase in the population from 18.52 to 23.79 million.

https://crimeresearch.org/2014/10/cp...ces-committee/

© Copyright Original Source

So whatever changes you see in crime statistics, it wasn't because there were fewer guns and fewer gun owners.

It should be noted that The Crime Prevention Research Center was founded and is presided by John Lott, a hardcore gun rights advocate, so while they assert they're unbiased, I'm going to take anything that comes from them with a grain of salt. Also while the number of guns is creeping up in Australia, "" Also, "fewer Australians now own guns. Since 1988, the proportion of households with a firearm fell by 75%."

He can "suggest" whatever he wants. There's a difference between wanting something to be true, and being able to prove that something is true. When looked at holistically, the rate of gun sales and ownership does not move in lockstep with crime and suicide statistics.

What makes you think he wants it to be true?

Guns are not the problem.

Again, I obviously disagree.

[Darth Executor]

It should be noted that The Crime Prevention Research Center was founded and is presided by John Lott, a hardcore gun rights advocate, so while they assert they're unbiased, I'm going to take anything that comes from them with a grain of salt. Also while the number of guns is creeping up in Australia, "" Also, "fewer Australians now own guns. Since 1988, the proportion of households with a firearm fell by 75%."

Why complain about the CPRC's bias then link to other blatantly biased material?

[Mountain Man]

It should be noted that The Crime Prevention Research Center was founded and is presided by John Lott, a hardcore gun rights advocate, so while they assert they're unbiased, I'm going to take anything that comes from them with a grain of salt. Also while the number of guns is creeping up in Australia, "" Also, "fewer Australians now own guns. Since 1988, the proportion of households with a firearm fell by 75%."

So basically, statistics are all over the place depending on which source you use, so it seems like we really don't have any idea what's going on. Is that about right?

[Adrift]

So basically, statistics are all over the place depending on which source you use, so it seems like we really don't have any idea what's going on. Is that about right?

Not as far as I'm concerned. The statistics seem to generally agree, and it's only the context which is sometimes missing.

[Adrift]

Why complain about the CPRC's bias then link to other blatantly biased material?

Point taken. Take Professor Philip Alpers results with the same grain of salt. Likely the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Mountain Man]

Not as far as I'm concerned. The statistics seem to generally agree, and it's only the context which is sometimes missing.

Point taken. Take Professor Philip Alpers results with the same grain of salt. Likely the truth is somewhere in the middle.

These two statements appear contradictory.

[Adrift]

These two statements appear contradictory.

In which way?

[Jedidiah]

What if someone breaks into my house and steals a knife that is later used to commit a crime, am I to be held accountable because I didn't properly secure the knife? How far do we want to push this insanity?

And insanity is the real problem. As I have said repeatedly, our society has made a serious break with reality in favor of emotional responses.

[Jedidiah]

So basically, statistics are all over the place depending on which source you use, so it seems like we really don't have any idea what's going on. Is that about right?

Isn't there a popular saying, "Statistics don't lie but statisticians do," or something like that?

[Cow Poke]

Isn't there a popular saying, "Statistics don't lie but statisticians do," or something like that?

Figures lie and liars figure.

[Mountain Man]

Isn't there a popular saying, "Statistics don't lie but statisticians do," or something like that?

Yep... as often happen, these debates devolve into arguing about which statistics are correct with each side favoring the numbers that support their argument, and even individual countries will often play and fast and loose with their accounting to get the figures they want.

So where do we go from here? One side says, go ahead and regulate, just don't unnecessarily or unreasonably infringe on our freedoms. The other side says, "To hell with your freedoms! No private citizen should have access to guns!" What's the middle ground?

[Sparko]

Yep... as often happen, these debates devolve into arguing about which statistics are correct with each side favoring the numbers that support their argument, and even individual countries will often play and fast and loose with their accounting to get the figures they want.

So where do we go from here? One side says, go ahead and regulate, just don't unnecessarily or unreasonably infringe on our freedoms. The other side says, "To hell with your freedoms! No private citizen should have access to guns!" What's the middle ground?

Normally in these liberal takeovers they will say "Oh you are overreacting! We don't want all _____ to be (legalized/banned) - that's just a slippery slope argument!" and then they do legalize or ban all ______ and say, why would any civilized person want ____ (or be opposed to _______?) You must be a Nazi!

[____ = Same Sex Marriage/Guns/Confederate symbols/Transgender Bathrooms/etc.

[ke7ejx]

Figures lie and liars figure.

Make that up yourself, Creacher?