Originally posted by Cow Poke
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A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWe seem to be back to the argument: if the law is not universally effective, forget it. By that rule, we should eliminate all laws because none of them are universally effective. This does not seem a rational argument, to me.
But you will, over time, make them more difficult to acquire. Eventually, the high-capacity magazines in use will be mostly gone.
You also provide another tool in the legal system for prosecuting those who use them.
Look - if I make gas-guzzling, emission-emitting vehicles illegal - then their manufacture will become illegal. Over time, the ones that exists "in the wild" will fail and their total number will be reduced. To say, "I'm not going to outlaw gas-guzzling emission-emitting vehivles because they will still be out there" is a formula for never doing anything.
So, let's get back to... how do we keep another mass shooter event from happening this year - not just when you and I are long gone and buried.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYou keep repeating this claim, but I'm curious, do you actually have any links to articles or something that suggest that those who attempt killing sprees are proficient in the weapons they use?
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ETA:
A "professional school shooter". What do you think that implies?Last edited by Cow Poke; 02-24-2018, 02:04 PM.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat doen't automatically require jail."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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I do think criminal liability should follow wanton negligence (e.g: left it in the front yard, failed to secure it when a known hazard was present) or depraved indifference (e.g: failed to secure after clear indication of threat) but otherwise, let the civil liabilities have it - same as when you fail to put up a fence around a swimming pool.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYou keep repeating this claim, but I'm curious, do you actually have any links to articles or something that suggest that those who attempt killing sprees are proficient in the weapons they use?
Also, kids have simulators at home called video games. You don't need a lot of target practice if you have a lot of simulator time logged. It's not that hard to get used to recoil.
CP is making your case for abolition here."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostY'all need a definition of 'proficient'.
I can shoot safely - but that doesn't mean I can effectively fight an urban warfare scenario.
Also, kids have simulators at home called video games. You don't need a lot of target practice if you have a lot of simulator time logged. It's not that hard to get used to recoil.
CP is making your case for abolition here.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostY'all need a definition of 'proficient'. I can shoot safely - but that doesn't mean I can effectively fight an urban warfare scenario.
Also, kids have simulators at home called video games. You don't need a lot of target practice if you have a lot of simulator time logged. It's not that hard to get used to recoil.
CP is making your case for abolition here.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostHe who is negligent - or shows depraved indifference - should pay for their disregard for the safety of others. Had that principle been in effect in Arkansas, the two boys who ambushed their classmates would never have succeeded - they got their guns from their grandfather who hadn't bothered to get a gun safe. They could not access their own guns or their father's which were in his gun safe.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUnfortunately, you are probably correct. Even such a group's findings would likely be rejected by whichever side that sees itself as "losing."
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have to challenge that, Jedidiah. Doctors, teacher, and a wide range of professionals have to renew their licenses periodically. I have to renew my driver's license and, under certian conditions, may have to redo the test. If a background check is required to purchase a gun, why would we not require someone who owns a gun to periodically (i.e., every 5 years?) have to renew the background check? People's health can change. An innocent person can later commit a crime. Why would this be immoral?
2. It is just a back door to a national list.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo how would you respond to a HIPAA-like requirement that gun dealers maintain permanent sale/ownership records? (it's not clear to me why a database of gun ownership/registration is more of an intrusion into privacy than any ofh the other databases of information that are currently maintained).
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSome do, Jedidiah. It's nto clear to me it is most or even many.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThere is subjectivity in every field, Jedidiah. Medical doctors get it wrong. No field is perfect. If we refuse to engage in anything that does not meet the criteria of "error free," we won'y engage in very much.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd purchase firearms should occur well after they are out of high school and when there is at least a chance of frontal cortex development.
Actually, all kids would be subject to the same law. Gang members would, as they do for so many other things, be breaking the law - and subject to it's censure. This appears, again, to be a form of "if some people break it, don't bother." Personally, knowing what I know about adolescent brain development, I would nto advocate a young person owning a weapon until they are at least 21m preferably 25. That doesn't prohibit them from using one - I think sons should still be able to hunt with their dads - for example. But I think the right to go out and purchase firearms should occur well after they are out of high school and when there is at least a chance of frontal cortex development.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd how do you think making background checks universal, and creating a nationwide database of gon registrations would diminish this (still) great nation?Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIf the gun owner was negligent in securing their firearms, and they were then used in the commission of a crime, you don't think there is some responsibility there?Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo. I have to resist this position. That is how the right and the gun-advocate crowd is positioning it - but that is not what many (most?) of us looking to deal with the issue of gun violence are trying to do. Many (most?) of us want to find ways to reduce violence due to guns, while preserving gun rights.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd Few of us are advocating "banning" guns. Some are - but most are not. To characterize the entire discussion as about "banning guns" is simply not a correct characterization.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostDo you honestly believe that somebody who is going to go on a mass killing spree would NOT be proficient with their weapon of choice?
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostA "professional school shooter". What do you think that implies?
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYes, absolutely.
You do realize that being a gun nut does not necessarily indicate that one is actually proficient with guns, right? In the military, we had tons of Soldier of Fortune types who couldn't shoot the broadside of a barn. So, again, I repeat, do you have any actual data or evidence that mass shooters are generally proficient with guns?
A nut. It certainly doesn't say anything about proficiency.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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