The Best Tax Proposal in the History of the World

[carpedm9587]

I have to wonder why anyone would continue a conversation with a person they view as irrational.

That being said, I see no point in continuing the discussion. Last word to you.

[Jedidiah]

fair tax.jpg

[Starlight]

Keep your entire paycheck

Assuming we all agree that it's necessary that some taxes get paid, I don't see what the motivation for being against income taxes is. Income taxes have been pretty much universal worldwide for ~100 years now.

Generally there is also an implied moral argument that income taxes are helpful in limiting socially-damaging inequality by taxing people with higher incomes at higher rates than people with low incomes are taxed (i.e. 'progressive taxation').

Everyone pays their fair share

I have to say that this "fairtax" strikes me as the single least fair tax system I have ever encountered or heard of in the modern world. It goes above and beyond in being unfair, because it is a 'regressive' taxation system (the poor pay a higher percentage of their incomes/wealth in tax than the rich do), even with their 'cost of living tax-back' tweak.

Pay tax only on what you spend

I would say a consumption-only tax system would be terrible for several reasons, but primarily because they are regressive taxation systems. Obviously that is why the rich, and ultra-rich, and think-tanks and economists paid by the rich, love the idea of consumption taxes, because it vastly disproportionately benefits them above everyone else. So they put out propaganda to convince the gullible to buy into their silly ideas.

IMO, you'd be much better to put a tax on savings (i.e. money not spent) than on consumption. Then it would be a progressive taxation system, and you'd increase consumer demand which would be good for the economy.

Immediately abolishes the IRS

So who collects the tax money for the government if the IRS is gone? The "We're Totally Not The IRS Department We Just Do The Same Job They Did Agency"?

I don't really understand what you think you're achieving by 'abolishing the IRS' (apart from helping the Mercers' skate free of the $7b tax evasion bill the IRS is chasing them for), because obviously the government needs tax income and hence needs a department/agency to collect it.

[carpedm9587]

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A sales tax is a regressive tax, disproportionately impacting the poor. Unless there is something about the concept I do not understand, I cannot support it as our primary means of taxation.

[Jedidiah]

Assuming we all agree that it's necessary that some taxes get paid, I don't see what the motivation for being against income taxes is. Income taxes have been pretty much universal worldwide for ~100 years now.

Well the IRS has a huge budget that would be eliminated and replaced with a much smaller cost for tax processing. Also the IRS has become a major political weapon, the real reason that it will never be removed.

Generally there is also an implied moral argument that income taxes are helpful in limiting socially-damaging inequality by taxing people with higher incomes at higher rates than people with low incomes are taxed (i.e. 'progressive taxation').

While I reject the Social Engineering you point out, it is still true that people with more money buy more, and more expensive stuff. They are thus taxed at a higher rate.

I have to say that this "fairtax" strikes me as the single least fair tax system I have ever encountered or heard of in the modern world. It goes above and beyond in being unfair, because it is a 'regressive' taxation system (the poor pay a higher percentage of their incomes/wealth in tax than the rich do), even with their 'cost of living tax-back' tweak.

I would say a consumption-only tax system would be terrible for several reasons, but primarily because they are regressive taxation systems. Obviously that is why the rich, and ultra-rich, and think-tanks and economists paid by the rich, love the idea of consumption taxes, because it vastly disproportionately benefits them above everyone else. So they put out propaganda to convince the gullible to buy into their silly ideas.

IMO, you'd be much better to put a tax on savings (i.e. money not spent) than on consumption. Then it would be a progressive taxation system, and you'd increase consumer demand which would be good for the economy.

Pure opinion, I suspect you have not read about the Fair Tax at all.

So who collects the tax money for the government if the IRS is gone? The "We're Totally Not The IRS Department We Just Do The Same Job They Did Agency"?

A consumption tax does not require any of the "Job" that the IRS does. It would be collected by the states using the set up already in place for sales taxes. States like my own, with out an established sales tax would have to arrange to collect it. That would still not be even close to as expensive or intrusive as the IRS.

I don't really understand what you think you're achieving by 'abolishing the IRS' (apart from helping the Mercers' skate free of the $7b tax evasion bill the IRS is chasing them for), because obviously the government needs tax income and hence needs a department/agency to collect it.

That sort of stuff could be settled before the elimination, or could be taken over by the DOJ. There are a number of folks, mostly liberals, who owe huge amounts and the IRS is not "chasing" them. Since we are not getting these things now what is the real value of the IRS, except to serve as a political weapon.

[Jedidiah]

A sales tax is a regressive tax, disproportionately impacting the poor. Unless there is something about the concept I do not understand, I cannot support it as our primary means of taxation.

If you do not know about the Fair Tax you are not dealing with reality. The Fair Tax does have provisions for dealing with the poor.

[carpedm9587]

If you do not know about the Fair Tax you are not dealing with reality. The Fair Tax does have provisions for dealing with the poor.

Umm...since the "FairTax" is not reality, I think I'm safe saying I'm dealing with reality, and just lack a particular piece of information. So how does the fair tax protect the poor?

Edited to add: NVM. Did a bit of digging. This article provides a pretty good summary of the main problem with the consumption tax. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway.../#1925c5175d7b). In a nutshell, low income people are protected by a prebate (assuming it is set to the right level for the family), but because of the progrsssively lower % of income spent as income climbs, an attempt to make this revenue neutral is going to squeeze the middle class, again benefiting the wealthy.

Why on earth is the right so consistently putting forward tax plans that benefit the most well-off? In another post, someone called liberals a "self-loathing" group, but I have never seen anything like the tendency of Republicans of all wage levels lining up to line the pockets of their wealthiest members. It defies reason.

[Starlight]

Well the IRS has a huge budget that would be eliminated and replaced with a much smaller cost for tax processing.

I support making taxation more efficient. I support tax returns that can be done on the back of a postcard. I support reducing tax law to relatively few pages. Get rid of all loopholes, get rid of all deductions. I support that.

Also the IRS has become a major political weapon, the real reason that it will never be removed.

You're crazy.

While I reject the Social Engineering you point out, it is still true that people with more money buy more, and more expensive stuff. They are thus taxed at a higher rate.

They buy more stuff and thus pay more total tax. However, when you measure the tax they are paying as a percentage of their income, they are paying a lower percentage rate. That is why it is called a 'regressive' taxation system.

I suspect you have not read about the Fair Tax at all.

As usual you are wrong.

There are a number of folks, mostly liberals, who owe huge amounts and the IRS is not "chasing" them.

Unfortunately the Republican politicians have deliberately underfunded the IRS's enforcement department so it is now relatively rare for the IRS to chase anyone. That has allowed their donors to get away with tax evasion. The biggest Republican donor is now the Mercer family who got into politics because the IRS pinged them for $7b in tax evasion (which they are still trying to collect).

Since we are not getting these things now what is the real value of the IRS, except to serve as a political weapon.

The only way in which the IRS is/has been a 'political weapon' is that the Republicans continue to reduce funding for IRS enforcement because rich people like to evade taxes. That is grounds for abolishing the Republican party, not the IRS.

[Cow Poke]

I support making taxation more efficient.

Ya mean like

A) How much did you make?
2) Send it in.

Like that?

[Starlight]

Why on earth is the right so consistently putting forward tax plans that benefit the most well-off?

Is that a serious question? Take one look at who their donors are, who funds their think tanks, and who owns and funds their propaganda/media. It's all the mega-rich, and they spend their money telling the politicians and indoctrinating the people that the world would be a much better place if everyone gave all their money to the rich (who are the great 'job creators' who 'know how to spend their money better than the government' etc).

In another post, someone called liberals a "self-loathing" group, but I have never seen anything like the tendency of Republicans of all wage levels lining up to line the pockets of their wealthiest members. It defies reason.

They are gullible marks who have been taken in, and they have to pretend to themselves they haven't by convincing other people.

[Starlight]

Ya mean like

A) How much did you make?
2) Send it in.

Like that?

In a recent headline I saw some libertarian think-tank had ranked my country 2nd best in the world for efficiency of taxation. Most people here don't need to fill out tax returns because it is automatically deducted in the correct amount from their electronic paychecks and there are no loopholes, and the sales tax is invisible to people (it's all priced-in by the retailers). So very few people spend any time thinking about taxes - the average person can go through life without seeing much mention of taxes anywhere or having much clue what they are paying in taxes or ever filling out a tax return.

I'm used to an efficient taxation system of the kind US libertarians dream about.

That said, I think the number one problem with my country currently is taxation is too regressive/not progressive enough (need to remove sales taxes, make income taxes more progressive, and need to add/increase: inheritance tax, capital gains tax, wealth taxes, company taxes, and foreign trust taxes).

[Cow Poke]

In a recent headline I saw some libertarian think-tank had ranked my country 2nd best in the world for efficiency of taxation. Most people here don't need to fill out tax returns because it is automatically deducted in the correct amount from their electronic paychecks and there are no loopholes, and the sales tax is invisible to people (it's all priced-in by the retailers). So very few people spend any time thinking about taxes - the average person can go through life without seeing much mention of taxes anywhere or having much clue what they are paying in taxes or ever filling out a tax return.

So, your government has managed to fleece your sheep, and keep the wool pulled over your eyes!

I'm used to an efficient taxation system of the kind US libertarians dream about.

That said, I think the number one problem with my country currently is taxation is too regressive/not progressive enough (need to remove sales taxes, make income taxes more progressive, and need to add/increase: inheritance tax, capital gains tax, wealth taxes, company taxes, and foreign trust taxes).

So, truth be told, you're not happy with your country's 'efficient' tax system, either.

[Starlight]

So, your government has managed to fleece your sheep, and keep the wool pulled over your eyes!

The government is hardly pulling the wool over my eyes since I think what is being taxed is the number one problem with my country.

However, my country has an efficient to the point of being invisible taxation system - that is what a lot of conservatives in this forum claim at least to want. I agree with them that is a worthwhile goal. I am 100% always supportive of government being more efficient.

So, truth be told, you're not happy with your country's 'efficient' tax system, either.

I'm happy with the efficiency of it.

I'm simply not happy with what the various tax rates actually are. I think the sales tax should be abolished entirely due to being a regressive tax (which is what makes Jedidiah's proposed Unfairtax so absurd), and other types of taxation should be increased/implemented instead. The number one most embarrassing and depressing absurdity is that the country lacks a functioning capital gains tax.

If I were running a country, the taxes I would have would be:
- No sales taxes
- A progressive income tax
- A capital gains tax that was at least equal to the income tax but probably much higher, and an inheritance tax equal to the capital gains tax.
- Standard corporate taxes
- A wealth tax for wealthy individuals of around 1% per year on all wealth (assets minus debt) over $1m.
- Maybe a transactions tax of 1c per transaction.

[carpedm9587]

[Starlight]

p.s. also a carbon tax. Forgot that one.