27 Christians Murdered In Texas Church...

[Adrift]

How about actually calling out the fact that if the laws were enforced that this would not have happened instead of calling for "something has to be done" and "we need to ban guns"? How about lauding the fact that a man with a legal gun helped to stop this guy with an illegal gun and saying that legal gun ownership saves lives?

They don't follow up or support the gun laws we have. In most cases of these things, the criminal has an illegal gun and IF the gun laws already passed were enforced it could have stopped him. But they never mention that.

And yes, I am being cynical. Because I see politicians using tragedy to push agendas. On both sides. Republicans were just using the murders in New York to hawk stricter immigration. same thing different side.

Ok, so what in practice do you feel could make the difference in the enforcement of current laws? Do you think that some special committee should be formed to observe and force law enforcers to enforce their laws? I mean, it sounds like you just want talking heads to get on TV and say "thank God for guns, we need more enforcement!" But...we already have talking heads doing that, and as far as I can tell that's not doing a whole lot.

[rogue06]

I mean, so what? Are they in power now? If not, then what's preventing enforcers from enforcing, and shutting up their critics by showing results?

You apparently overlooked the first of the sentence. And again, all indications are that the critics are not interested in how much the laws are enforced regardless of who is currently in power. All they ever do is demand that more and more laws get passed.

[Mountain Man]

Seems this guy had quite the past. He assaulted his wife and stepchild in 2011, escaped from a mental hospital in 2012, and was later court-martialed and received a bad-conduct discharge from the Air Force. Yet none of this showed up in his background check. That's mind boggling. I know a guy with a misdemeanor from nearly 30-years that still shows up on his record. How did this fellow slip through the cracks?

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/...2-says-report/

[Adrift]

Yeah, you found one! BTW - did the bill pass?

Yes.

From your link:

However, the bill has run up against opposition from those who believe the prisons are already overcrowded with African-American males, many of whom would see longer sentences under the new law. (I mentioned this as a possible byproduct of tougher penalties in a column last April.) And, of course, the term "mandatory minimum" has become a shibboleth for those who believe tougher sentences adversely affect the African-American communities in large cities.

If all it's doing is sending more people to jail (regardless of race), but not actually curbing gun crime, then it seems to me that the opposition had a right to be concerned. If it actually did something, then that's one thing. If all it's doing is overcrowding our prisons without stopping the root issue, then another workaround is in order, wouldn't you agree?

Did you even read the link? ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations.
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

I did. I'm obviously missing the connection here between the ATF and gun control advocate groups. As far as I can tell, the ATF didn't instigate this on the part of any gun control advocacy groups. Rather, it was done in the hopes of following the trail to drug kingpins in Mexico. This had absolutely NOTHING to do with the ridiculous notion that advocates were hoping the guns would get onto American streets so that more murders could happen so that more evil politicians could push their agendas.

[Sparko]

Ok, so what in practice do you feel could make the difference in the enforcement of current laws? Do you think that some special committee should be formed to observe and force law enforcers to enforce their laws? I mean, it sounds like you just want talking heads to get on TV and say "thank God for guns, we need more enforcement!" But...we already have talking heads doing that, and as far as I can tell that's not doing a whole lot.

so if enforcing the current laws is not practical, why are they pushing for more laws that will not be enforced?

I am upset that they are calling for more restrictions instead of pointing out the failure of the law enforcers to enforce the laws we already have. Maybe if they started enforcing the law that says lying on the background check form is a felony for example? Or taking away the license from gun dealers if they don't do a proper background check and the guy ends up killing someone.

If we already have laws that can help but are not being enforced, why are they not complaining about THAT on the MSM and in the Capitol?

[Adrift]

You apparently overlooked the first of the sentence. And again, all indications are that the critics are not interested in how much the laws are enforced regardless of who is currently in power. All they ever do is demand that more and more laws get passed.

I mean, if the regularity of massacres like the one in the OP are any indication, it doesn't appear that much is getting done, and the demand that more and more laws get passed, when the ones currently on the books don't seem to be stopping these massacres, seems totally understandable. People are sick and tired of seeing this atrocious stuff in the news. I know I am. There needs to be some sort of change, because whatever we're doing now isn't working.

[Adrift]

Seems this guy had quite the past. He assaulted his wife and stepchild in 2011, escaped from a mental hospital in 2012, and was later court-martialed and received a bad-conduct discharge from the Air Force. Yet none of this showed up in his background check. That's mind boggling. I know a guy with a misdemeanor from nearly 30-years that still shows up on his record. How did this fellow slip through the cracks?

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/...2-says-report/

One of the things that i find disturbing is that the guy was, from all reports, a raving atheist, and that's not getting reported barely at all. I don't think the guy's atheism necessarily pushed him into shooting up a church. You don't shoot up a church cause you're an atheist, you shoot up a church cause you're nuts or because you're possessed, or something. But the fact that it isn't getting any media attention at all when, if the reverse was done (a Christian shooting up an secularist meeting), they'd be having a field day about it, is just... I don't know. It's not right.

[Adrift]

so if enforcing the current laws is not practical, why are they pushing for more laws that will not be enforced?

I am upset that they are calling for more restrictions instead of pointing out the failure of the law enforcers to enforce the laws we already have. Maybe if they started enforcing the law that says lying on the background check form is a felony for example? Or taking away the license from gun dealers if they don't do a proper background check and the guy ends up killing someone.

If we already have laws that can help but are not being enforced, why are they not complaining about THAT on the MSM and in the Capitol?

Is anyone, either on the left or right making these complaints? Are you just angry at gun control advocates on this issue, or the system as a whole? What if the laws are in fact being enforced (or as enforced as they reasonably can be), but it's still not doing enough? I think that's the concern of most gun control advocates.

[Sparko]

Is anyone, either on the left or right making these complaints? Are you just angry at gun control advocates on this issue, or the system as a whole? What if the laws are in fact being enforced (or as enforced as they reasonably can be), but it's still not doing enough? I think that's the concern of most gun control advocates.

obviously they aren't or this guy would not have gotten a gun.

Or maybe they don't work because, um... CRIMINALS don't obey laws?

[Mountain Man]

One of the things that i find disturbing is that the guy was, from all reports, a raving atheist, and that's not getting reported barely at all. I don't think the guy's atheism necessarily pushed him into shooting up a church. You don't shoot up a church cause you're an atheist, you shoot up a church cause you're nuts or because you're possessed, or something. But the fact that it isn't getting any media attention at all when, if the reverse was done (a Christian shooting up an secularist meeting), they'd be having a field day about it, is just... I don't know. It's not right.

Seems like the only time the media considers a person's worldview to be of interest is when it's a Christian.

[One Bad Pig]

One of the things that i find disturbing is that the guy was, from all reports, a raving atheist, and that's not getting reported barely at all. I don't think the guy's atheism necessarily pushed him into shooting up a church. You don't shoot up a church cause you're an atheist, you shoot up a church cause you're nuts or because you're possessed, or something. But the fact that it isn't getting any media attention at all when, if the reverse was done (a Christian shooting up an secularist meeting), they'd be having a field day about it, is just... I don't know. It's not right.

It's not right, but not at all unexpected.

[Adrift]

obviously they aren't or this guy would not have gotten a gun.

Okay. So, who's fault is that exactly? It can't just be on the shoulders of gun control advocates. If the system is broken then it's broken because of everyone in the system, not just those who want to see it fixed. Or maybe there's always going to be accidents in a system with as much red tape as ours has, which, again, isn't the fault purely of gun control advocates.

Or maybe they don't work because, um... CRIMINALS don't obey laws?

The whole "criminals don't obey laws" is a bit of a red herring. We discussed this in the other thread. The goal of gun control laws isn't to prevent law abiding criminals from committing crimes, but from preventing law breaking criminals from committing crimes by making it much harder for them to acquire weapons by any means (either legally or illegally).

[Adrift]

It's not right, but not at all unexpected.

True. I've been scouring the internet to see if people are talking about it, and almost no one is.

[Darth Executor]

Is anyone, either on the left or right making these complaints? Are you just angry at gun control advocates on this issue, or the system as a whole? What if the laws are in fact being enforced (or as enforced as they reasonably can be), but it's still not doing enough? I think that's the concern of most gun control advocates.

Are gun controls really concerned about that? Considering how controversial gun control is you'd think they'd try to squeeze the most out of existing laws first. But to me they seem completely uninterested in stuff like this blatant oversight. This is a large part of why most of us are skeptical about gun control advocates. I don't really believe it's all, or even primarily about keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. I think it's part virtue signalling, part fear of insurrection. Currently American progressives would never have the guts to do to the right what they did to the right in Europe where constitutional protections for either free speech or gun ownership are non-existent and the population in general is a lot more complaint to government whims.

[Littlejoe]