Somebody doesn't have to be "demon possessed" to carry out this kind of carnage. It could be something like having no godly influence to offset the evil desires of the heart, which the Bible says is "desperately wicked, who can know it?"
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSomebody doesn't have to be "demon possessed" to carry out this kind of carnage. It could be something like having no godly influence to offset the evil desires of the heart, which the Bible says is "desperately wicked, who can know it?"Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostNot at all, but in this case I'd lean toward it.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostEh, Saul experienced an evil spirit that tormented him, and he seemed rather cold and calculating. Judas was possessed, and he seemed pretty cold and calculating. The prophesying slave girl in Acts seemed relatively calculating in her attempt to mock the men of God.
I am not aware of any text saying Judas was "possessed." The closest might be when Jesus told the group, "One of you is a devil." If that's the basis for the claim, why not also claim that Peter was "possessed" by satan, since Jesus directly said to him, "Get behind me, satan!"
I'm honestly not sure what to make of the Acts 16 case. I don't see anything that implies she was "mocking." And yet Paul did become greatly annoyed, and expelled the spirit without even being asked to do so. In any case, she wasn't violent.
The idea that belief in demonic possession and oppression can be boiled down to "Da debbil made me do it" is a little silly and simplistic. It's been my experience that too many thinking Christians find talk of satan and evil spirits embarrassing. Like, it's cool to believe in God, but you know, keep the whole demons thing under wraps. You don't want people to think you're a weirdo or anything. But, you know, the Bible discusses the spiritual realm quite a bit, and it's simply a fact that demons are part of the Christian worldview. The Adversary hates us, and wants nothing more than to throw a monkey wrench into God's plans for us. He and his agents aren't simply sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day. They're doing something, and scripture, while maybe not going into great detail, does paint a picture of that something. Scholars like Michael Heiser have been doing a great job pointing out how much scripture actually does discuss the nature and role of demons in the spiritual realm (I highly suggest his book The Unseen Realm). That said, of course I don't believe there's a demon in every bush. I ultimately agree with Lewis who said, "There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight."
If we do accept the premise that people such as that shooter are under the control of demons, then ISTM we are left with the problem FF suggested. In Scripture, we have no evidence that anyone was punished for the violence committed while under demonic influence. They were themselves regarded as victims.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostSaul's case is problematic because it explicitly and repeatedly says that the evil spirit came "from God."
If all we had was the Old Testament we might say that God has evil spirits on retainer, but we don't just have the Old Testament; We have further revelation in the New. So reading the Old Testament in light of the New, we know that there is a spiritual struggle between good and evil, and that Satan and evil spirits attempt to work against God's will, (though in the end everything works towards God's ultimate will and purposes, whether they intend to or not). We know that God is good, that he is light and that there is no darkness in him. That he is not the author of confusion, and that he cannot be tempted with evil, nor does he tempt with evil. We know that demons, which are hardly ever explicitly mentioned in the Old Testament, are mentioned with some regularity in the New. So, unless demons and possession didn't exist until the first century, and you want to say that God occasionally used to work with some sort of other evil spirits that are not the same as the evil spirits we encounter in the New Testament, then I think it's appropriate to see them as one and the same. Reading the 1 Samuel passages in this light, I believe an appropriate contextual understanding is one that sees God simply removing his hand of protection off of Saul for disobedience. The consequences of Saul's unlawful sacrifice and sins in chapter 13 and 15 is that God took his hand of protection away from Saul, which resulted in the spirit of the Lord leaving Saul, and an opportunity for an evil spirit to take advantage of the situation. But even where evil occurs or takes opportunity in contrast to God's desire for us, he is able to take what was intended as evil, flip it, and through it, produce good.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI am not aware of any text saying Judas was "possessed." The closest might be when Jesus told the group, "One of you is a devil." If that's the basis for the claim, why not also claim that Peter was "possessed" by satan, since Jesus directly said to him, "Get behind me, satan!"
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI'm honestly not sure what to make of the Acts 16 case. I don't see anything that implies she was "mocking." And yet Paul did become greatly annoyed, and expelled the spirit without even being asked to do so. In any case, she wasn't violent.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostIf we do accept the premise that people such as that shooter are under the control of demons, then ISTM we are left with the problem FF suggested. In Scripture, we have no evidence that anyone was punished for the violence committed while under demonic influence. They were themselves regarded as victims.Last edited by Adrift; 11-13-2017, 01:31 PM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostIf all we had was the Old Testament we might say that God has evil spirits on retainer, but we don't just have the Old Testament; We have further revelation in the New. So reading the Old Testament in light of the New, we know that there is a spiritual struggle between good and evil, and that Satan and evil spirits attempt to work against God's will, (though in the end everything works towards God's ultimate will and purposes, whether they intend to or not). We know that God is good, that he is light and that there is no darkness in him. That he is not the author of confusion, and that he cannot be tempted with evil, nor does he tempt with evil.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Adrift View Post...
Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThe idea that belief in demonic possession and oppression can be boiled down to "Da debbil made me do it" is a little silly and simplistic. It's been my experience that too many thinking Christians find talk of satan and evil spirits embarrassing. Like, it's cool to believe in God, but you know, keep the whole demons thing under wraps. You don't want people to think you're a weirdo or anything. But, you know, the Bible discusses the spiritual realm quite a bit, and it's simply a fact that demons are part of the Christian worldview. The Adversary hates us, and wants nothing more than to throw a monkey wrench into God's plans for us. He and his agents aren't simply sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostWell... if someone is a preterist, then "sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day" is generally a pretty apt description of what they believe Satan is doing.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostDepends on the flavor of preterist, and how close to the end they think we are. In the a-mil camp, Satan gets released shortly before the end to wreak havoc.
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Meanwhile, we had our security briefing and active shooter training in Dallas this evening, and we heard from some of the survivors.
Thinking about how much I can say about that, but suffice it to say... wow.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostWell... if someone is a preterist, then "sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day" is generally a pretty apt description of what they believe Satan is doing.
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