Liberal Atheists are at it again.

[seer]

Nonsense, John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, 28 June 1813

The general Principles, on which the Fathers Achieved Independence, were the only Principles in which, that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their Address, or by me in my Answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities Sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God: and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.

https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../03-06-02-0208

And what the hell does Reynolds v. United States have to do with anything we are discussing?


No the are activists when they deny the plain text of the Constitution: CONGRESS shall make no LAW.

[seer]

Oh, be careful Tass, you're going to make Jeds head explode trying to find an answer to that one in a way that he doesn't contradict himself.

I have no problem saying that the historic faith of our Founders and founding, and still the dominate religion of today, should have a favored place in our Culture - public or private.

[Roy]

How does having a monument to the ten commandments constitute congress making a law?

I'm not that familiar with the intricacies of local government in the US, but I suspect that some form of congressional vote would be needed to approve the use of government land and/or money. State and national budgets are bills that are made into law. In fact the US constitution confirms this at the national level: "No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law..."

How do you not know this?

In the case of school prayer there are laws that govern what can and cannot be done in public schools, and in two cases that I am aware of the state congresses of Alabama and New York did in fact introduce legislation.

[seer]

The original intent of the founding fathers can be seen in the Treaty of Tripoli which says that the United States was not in any way founded upon the Christian religion.

No that black and white:

According to Frank Lambert, Professor of History at Purdue University, the assurances in Article 11 were "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers." Lambert writes,

"By their actions, the Founding Fathers made clear that their primary concern was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion. Individuals, not the government, would define religious faith and practice in the United States. Thus the Founders ensured that in no official sense would America be a Christian Republic. Ten years after the Constitutional Convention ended its work, the country assured the world that the United States was a secular state, and that its negotiations would adhere to the rule of law, not the dictates of the Christian faith. The assurances were contained in the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 and were intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers.[14]
The treaty was printed in the Philadelphia Gazette and two New York papers, with only scant public dissent, most notably from William Cobbett.[15]

Later dissent

A prominent member of Adams' cabinet, Secretary of War James McHenry, claims that he protested the language of article 11 before its ratification. He wrote to Secretary of the Treasury Oliver Wolcott, Jr., September 26, 1800: "The Senate, my good friend, and I said so at the time, ought never to have ratified the treaty alluded to, with the declaration that 'the government of the United States, is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.' What else is it founded on? This act always appeared to me like trampling upon the cross. I do not recollect that Barlow was even reprimanded for this outrage upon the government and religion."

A second treaty, the Treaty of Peace and Amity signed on July 4, 1805, superseded the 1796 treaty. The 1805 treaty did not contain the phrase "not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

[One Bad Pig]

Because there are lots of ways to violate the separation of church and state that don't involve providing such facilities,* and erecting a government monument that validates a specific religion is one of them.

*and lots of ways of providing such facilities that don't violate the separation of church and state.

Well, that's a helpfully vague blanket assertion, along with a specific assertion which does not, on the face of it, appear plausible. Its purpose is to honor war dead, and if nothing else, it is a piece of history. If we tore down all monuments somebody objected to, we'd have no monuments left.

[Mountain Man]

Allowing such symbols assumes that Christianity is the de facto established religion of the USA.

Because historically it is.

[Mountain Man]

The original intent of the founding fathers can be seen in the Treaty of Tripoli which says that the United States was not in any way founded upon the Christian religion.

The treaty as it was originally written is, quite frankly, wrong, and it's why that phrase was stripped from the treaty several years later, as seer pointed out.

Source: World Net Dailly

http://www.wnd.com/2017/05/the-treat...theists-think/

© Copyright Original Source

The fact is, the United States of America was most certainly founded as a Christian nation to the extent that our Declaration of Independence rests entirely on the premise that God exists and that he is the Creator of all men. And, no, it's not referring to some generic "god" concept but specifically to the God of Christianity, a fact that becomes clear to anybody with even a passing familiarity with the writings and speeches of America's Founding Fathers.

To put this very simply, Christianity is not the official state religion of America, but it is the religion of America.

[seer]

To put this very simply, Christianity is not the official state religion of America, but it is the religion of America.

Yep!

[Sparko]

Allowing such symbols assumes that Christianity is the de facto established religion of the USA. Would you accept monuments depicting the key rules of Sharia Law outside US courthouses, why not?

You realize that the 10 commandments isn't even Christian, right? It's Jewish.

And Sharia Law isn't even part of the Koran, it is something extra imposed upon muslims to conform them to the Koran. I believe the Muslims actually have a very similar 10 commandments to the Jewish ones.

[JimL]

I have no problem saying that the historic faith of our Founders and founding, and still the dominate religion of today, should have a favored place in our Culture - public or private.

What the faith of the Founding Fathers was is irrelevant to their positions concerning its place in government. For example, Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence, who was not a Christian btw, though perhaps a Deist, wrote this in a letter to John Adams:

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the supreme being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding.

They didn't want a favored place in our culture for Christianity, they simply wanted freedom to think and believe what one wants no matter what ones thoughts and beliefs are.

[Roy]

Emphasis mine:

If a monument of the 10 commandments is "in no way a facility for religious observance", then how can displaying it possibly be a violation of the separation of church and state?

Because there are lots of ways to violate the separation of church and state that don't involve providing such facilities,* and erecting a government monument that validates a specific religion is one of them.

Well, that's a helpfully vague blanket assertion, along with a specific assertion which does not, on the face of it, appear plausible. Its purpose is to honor war dead, and if nothing else, it is a piece of history.

A hypothetical monument of the ten commandments does not have the actual purpose of honouring war dead.

You seem to have confused two different monuments.

[Roy]

The fact is, the United States of America was most certainly founded as a Christian nation to the extent that our Declaration of Independence rests entirely on the premise that God exists and that he is the Creator of all men. And, no, it's not referring to some generic "god" concept but specifically to the God of Christianity, ...

Codswallop. The DoI is not referring specifically to the God of Christianity. It refers to "Nature's God".

Feel free to quote the actual text where you think it does.

[seer]

Codswallop. The DoI is not referring specifically to the God of Christianity. It refers to "Nature's God".

Well first the Christian God is nature's God, second Jefferson borrowed the term "law of nature and nature's God" from Blackstone's Commentary, which was the Christian God. http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism/blackstone.htm

Even if Jefferson had a more generic view of God, which he probably did, the majority of Founders and population would have viewed it as the Christian God. Never mind the fact that the Founders relied heavily on the works of Locke when it came to human rights - and Locke grounded those in the God of scripture.

[One Bad Pig]

Emphasis mine:A hypothetical monument of the ten commandments does not have the actual purpose of honouring war dead.

You seem to have confused two different monuments.

Yes, I did. Sorry. How does a facsimile of an historic law code, which is not entirely unrelated to our current law code, validate a religion?

[Sparko]

What the faith of the Founding Fathers was is irrelevant to their positions concerning its place in government. For example, Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence, who was not a Christian btw, though perhaps a Deist, wrote this in a letter to John Adams:

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the supreme being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding.

They didn't want a favored place in our culture for Christianity, they simply wanted freedom to think and believe what one wants no matter what ones thoughts and beliefs are.

The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors.

So much for your quotation of Calvin's `mon dieu! jusqu'a quand' in which, when addressed to the God of Jesus, and our God, I join you cordially, and await his time and will with more readiness than reluctance. May we meet there again, in Congress, with our antient Colleagues, and recieve with them the seal of approbation `Well done, good and faithful servants.'

--
http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib...n_Adams_1.html