Liberal Atheists are at it again.

[Roy]

Because atheists have such low self-esteem that they're deathly afraid that any unbiased person who is confronted with religious truths will join our side instead of theirs.

[Tassman]

The difference is conservatives go by the things the founding fathers actually wrote. Liberals reinterpret according to their own political positions.

One side goes by what they believe the intention of the founding fathers to have been and the other side goes by what it believes the intention of the founding fathers to have been. If the FF's intention is disputed then it must go to court for a definitive ruling. The losing side of the dispute, whichever side it was, is going to disagree with the verdict. Obviously! But this is why we have courts.

[Tassman]

I don't deny that leftists courts have violated the Constitution.

That is just stupid, school prayer does not violate the Constitution AS WRITTEN. CONGRESS shall make no LAW.

Even as dense as you are Tass surely you can see that a school is not congress making a law!

If schools and other establishments BEHAVE as though Christianity is the Established Religion of the land then it is acting as IF Congress has indeed made a law and need to be stopped...as the court ruled.

[Roy]

So you won't admit that attendance at school prayer was compulsory at your school. Maybe one day you'll acquire some integrity and stop avoiding inconvenient truths.

No Roy, it is not compulsory to attend a public school. Second, saying the prayer is not compulsory.

...but clearly not today.

[Roy]

it has never been compulsory. I lived during the time we had school prayer. There was even a few years where I was convinced by Jehovah's witnesses whom my mom studied with that I should not say the Pledge of Allegiance or say prayers in school so I didn't. Nobody said a word to me about it.

Was attendance compulsory?

And congress is opened up each session with a prayer, with everyone in attendance.

Which is, as I said but you have ignored, their choice. You have not shown that there is any compulsion for them to attend.

[Mountain Man]

Why would those in power suppress their own opinion? I'll quote myself in case you forgot: "Also, if you imagine a dominant minority scenario, you can assume I refer to that group when I say majority."

So basically, "If you imagine a scenario where I'm wrong, then I'm still right."

The fact that you're trying to redefine "majority" to have its exact opposite meaning tells me that you realize you've lost the debate.

What you're really doing is conceding to my position that the purpose of the First Amendment is to prohibit those in power from suppressing free expression, and that whether it's the opinion of the majority or the minority or a "dominant minority" () is irrelevant as far as the First Amendment is concerned.

[Roy]

I quite agree that there is no need for any religion to be discriminated against if there is no state church. It still happens. The point, if I may return to it, is that the congress shall make not law is aimed at eliminating a state denomination, not protecting any minority denomination.

The actual point, which you have deleted and are trying to avoid, was that state churches, including the Church of England during part of its existence, often can and do prevent those of other faiths from worshipping.

You are really simply telling me that laws are not magic.

I haven't said any such thing.

[Jedidiah]

BEHAVE as though Christianity is the Established Religion of the land then it is acting as IF Congress has indeed made a law and need to be stopped...as the court ruled.

What it comes down to is that regardless of what the original intent of the founders, and regardless of how clear it is written, the activist courts have managed to make the violation of the Constitution legal in this declining age.

[seer]

...but clearly not today.

Nonsense Roy, attendance at school is not compulsory, one could home school. Second, so what if it is - are we afraid that a child may see or hear something that they disagree with? If we use that standard then a lot of stuff would be removed from the courses. Are the JWs being damaged in some way because they have to sit through the Pledge? Your whole argument is just stupid.

[seer]

Was attendance compulsory?

Is attendance in public schools compulsory?

[Jedidiah]

The actual point, which you have deleted and are trying to avoid, was that state churches, including the Church of England during part of its existence, often can and do prevent those of other faiths from worshipping. I haven't said any such thing.

I deleted nothing. We simply disagree.

[Sparko]

Since when was having a monument of the 10 commandments necessary for Xtian worship? It is in no way a facility for religious observance. They don't even have them in churches.

You know this.

correct, so why are they being removed from government property?

(actually I have seen them in churches)

[Sparko]

Was attendance compulsory?

well attendance in the classroom was, but it had nothing to do with prayer. You had to be in class by a certain time. Participation was not mandatory. And you could even sit during the national anthem if you wanted. And if you wanted to say, go to the bathroom or go out in the hall during the prayer, I don't think anyone would have said anything. It just wasn't a big deal until the liberals took it out of school.

Which is, as I said but you have ignored, their choice. You have not shown that there is any compulsion for them to attend.

They have to be in the room to do their freaking JOB, Roy. So yeah attendance is compulsory. This is how they start the congressional session. Everyone shows up. They open with prayer, then they start doing their thang.

[JimL]

well attendance in the classroom was, but it had nothing to do with prayer. You had to be in class by a certain time. Participation was not mandatory. And you could even sit during the national anthem if you wanted. And if you wanted to say, go to the bathroom or go out in the hall during the prayer, I don't think anyone would have said anything. It just wasn't a big deal until the liberals took it out of school.

They have to be in the room to do their freaking JOB, Roy. So yeah attendance is compulsory. This is how they start the congressional session. Everyone shows up. They open with prayer, then they start doing their thang.

I'm fairly certain that if it were Allah being prayed to in school rooms, or if it were muslim religious monuments being placed in public buildings, you'd all be changing your tune. Wouldn't you?

[Sparko]

I'm fairly certain that if it were Allah being prayed to in school rooms, or if it were muslim religious monuments being placed in public buildings, you'd all be changing your tune. Wouldn't you?

The prayers in school were always very generic. We never prayed to Jesus for example, or said anything that was "Christian" - like the lunch prayer I said earlier: "God is great, God is Good, now we thank you for our food" - even a muslim could say that one.

At the time I was not a Christian, I didn't even believe in God. I was an agnostic, but saying the prayers never bothered me a bit. And later when my mom was studying with the Jehovah's Witnesses and they convinced me not to say the pledge or the prayers, they still didn't bother me. In fact, I felt kinda smug sitting them out, thinking I was better than the idiots who said the pledge or the prayers. I sure didn't feel ostracized.