Originally posted by Terraceth
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Trump says he met with the 'president of the Virgin Islands'
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd I find it pretty interesting that the same group that chided the US for the Electoral College are singing the praises of the candidate who lost the popular vote being the PM.
The situation would be more akin to something like the 1824 presidential election, where no candidate was able to get a majority of the electoral college vote and thus went to the House (if no one gets an electoral college majority, the House of Representatives votes on the top three candidates), with Jackson, Adams, and Clay being the top three candidates and thus the ones the House voted on. Clay had the lowest support and thus no real chance of winning in the House, put his support behind Adams (who received fewer electors than Jackson), and thus the Clay+Adams faction was able reach majority and elect Adams to the White House.
Although, interestingly, if we were to replace the electoral college with a popular vote as some have suggested, it's worth pointing out that it isn't the person who gets the most votes who wins the electoral college, but only a person who wins a majority. If you don't get the majority, then the whole issue goes to the House who vote on the top three candidates. So with this applicable to the popular vote, neither Trump nor Hillary get the majority, and the whole thing gets decided by the House, which was controlled by the Republicans so do the math as to who most likely ends up winning in that scenario. I suppose it could be changed further so that whoever gets the most votes wins, even if it's not a majority, but I think that's a not very common for any presidential system, and that most countries have some kind of "second election" system for such cases (e.g. France takes the top two candidates and does another election where they're the only two choices). One could do France's system, but then it's uncertain who would have won the popular vote in such a re-election.
I firmly believe that the sentiment that produced Donald Trump isn't done. Unless the Dems run another black candidate who will get the black vote out in record numbers, like when Obama ran, they certainly won't have enough to take a supermajority.
As for the sentiment that produced Donald Trump, we need to remember that the race really was relatively close in the end (even if the electoral college results don't reflect it--as I've noted, if 1% of voters changed their votes from Trump to Clinton in Florida and Pennsylvania, she wins) and that Clinton was a relatively unpopular candidate who even after the election had such a low approval rating it's entirely possible Trump would still win, and possibly take the popular vote this time, if the election were re-held. If the Democrats find someone without her baggage I think they could beat Trump. But like I said, 3 years is a long time in politics. A lot of things can happen to make any predictions at this time look laughable in retrospect.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostFolks, this is the difference between 'progressives' and 'conservatives'.
Conservatives disagree with progressives on how to fix problems in society, but they want to play by the rules of democracy, and are willing to live and let live where agreement can't be reached, or where the majority choice is different from theirs. They see progressives as mistaken but basically people with good intentions.
Progressives (as exemplified by Starlight here) see conservatives as "... irredeemably evil, and unsavable scum.", "...deplorable, stupid, ignorant, hate-filled, foolish and genuinely horrible people...". They have no interest in dialogue, discussion or agreeing to disagree "... dialogue is worthless."; "....beyond any kind of correction or censure...". They will impose their politics on everyone, to blazes with democracy or any freedom to live differently. They will (and do) shut down your speech, hound you out of jobs, slander, defame, and smear you; attack your family and children - because you are evil. Remember the progression in insults - first conservatives were bigots and homophobes; now they are worse than actual Nazis. Labels used to avoid reason and call up the most violent emotional reaction.
I have seen the post above (not word for word mind you, but the general theme of the post) from both sides of the political spectrum. An amazing number of conservatives think progressives/liberals are intolerant, vindictive, and all of the other things listed here. An amazing number of progressives/liberals think conservatives are the same. Conservatives often see themselves as willing to compromise, play fair, adhere to the norms of our democracy, and most progressives/liberals see themselves in much the same terms.
Many conservatives think progressives/liberals obstruct when they are not in power, and exclude the opposite side when they are. Many progressives/liberals think conservatives obstruct when they are not in power, and exclude the opposite side when they are.
So maybe, just maybe, there's a little bit of truth on both sides - and a lot of hyperbole as well? Maybe there's not a lot of listening on either side, these days? Perhaps the left and the right are seeing one another as political objects - rather than people with fears, needs, hopes, disappointments, and values?
Just a thought...Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-19-2017, 08:50 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThat brings to mind the old saying about if you aren't liberal at age 20 you have no heart but if you're still liberal at age 40 you have no brains. Things like buying a house and having kids really tends to change your outlook. One of the most liberal groups in the U.S. are single women without children. One of the most conservative are married women with kids.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThis interests me. It interests me because, when it became clear to me that Trump was likely to be elected, I decided I had sat on the political sidelines for too long, careful not to offend friend or client or family, and I turned my Facebook page into a political blog. I highlight news, foster discussion as much as possible, and have only one rule: play nice and be civil.
I have seen the post above (not word for word mind you, but the general theme of the post) from both sides of the political spectrum. An amazing number of conservatives think progressives/liberals are intolerant, vindictive, and all of the other things list here. An amazing number of progressives/liberals think conservatives are the same. Conservatives often see themselves as willing to compromise, play fair, adhere to the norms of our democracy, and most progressives/liberals see themselves in much the same terms.
Many conservatives think progressives/liberals obstruct when they are not in power, and exclude the opposite side when they are. Many progressives/liberals think conservatives obstruct when they are not in power, and exclude the opposite side when they are.
So maybe, just maybe, there's a little bit of truth on both sides - and a lot of hyperbole as well? Maybe there's not a lot of listening on either side, these days? Perhaps the left and the right are seeing one another as political objects - rather than people with fears, needs, hopes, disappointments, and values?
Just a thought...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostProllyThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI'll take that as hopeful. So the next question is - what do we do about it?
It appears there are about a dozen "regulars" here, and after a while, you pretty well know what everybody is going to say.
I took a break some time ago just because I got tired of the 'same ol same ol', and am probably going to take another break soon.
It gets tiresome.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis is a whole different venue than real life. In real life, I'm quick to discern who is really open to discussion and who is just wanting to do battle.
It appears there are about a dozen "regulars" here, and after a while, you pretty well know what everybody is going to say.
I took a break some time ago just because I got tired of the 'same ol same ol', and am probably going to take another break soon.
It gets tiresome.
But surely, even in this venue, there are things we can do to open up avenues of listening? To break down walls and strive to get some small part of the machine working properly again? Wouldn't THAT be a refreshing break from "same old, same old?"
I suspect the right and the left have more common ground than they truly know. In my experience, they differ more in "how do we get to X" than "what is X."
Perhaps a good first step would be to take this discussion out of a clearly "anti-trump" thread and put it in a more neutral place that doesn't inflame before the discussion even starts...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have noted much the same - and my break lasted about a decade
But surely, even in this venue, there are things we can do to open up avenues of listening? To break down walls and strive to get some small part of the machine working properly again? Wouldn't THAT be a refreshing break from "same old, same old?"
I suspect the right and the left have more common ground than they truly know. In my experience, they differ more in "how do we get to X" than "what is X."
Perhaps a good first step would be to take this discussion out of a clearly "anti-trump" thread and put it in a more neutral place that doesn't inflame before the discussion even starts...
Right now, there's a big "to do" going on about 80 miles from me where some idiot is driving around with a big "F Trump" sign on the back of her pickup truck, and "F you who voted for him". That kind of message, which will be seen by kids, is just insane. It's free speech, sure, but sheeeeesh.... how much hate to you have to have for that to overrule your sense of decency?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIt could be that this forum is simply not conducive to that - it seems to draw those who want to expound on their own ideas, and not 'learn' or 'take away' anything else.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI don't know - I think it comes down to more a "battle for the soul" of our Nation. Progressives want to do away with any reference or indication of Christianity, and Christians feel obligated to advance the cause of Christ.
Likewise, when explicit reflections of a particular religion are enshrined in a government context, I am against it because I want ALL religious beliefs to be freely expressed by the populace. The Laws of Moses in a courtroom or courthouse is a problem, unless it is in the context of a general display of various codes of law (e.g., Hamurabi's Code, Twelve tables of Roman Law, Sharia, Laws of Eshnunna, etc.). I even oppose "In God We Trust" on our money: it divides. It was added in the 1950s in a wave of "anti-communist" sentiment, but it excludes a portion of the populace, namely atheists. ANY government intrusion on how an individual worships (or doesn't) is anathema to me. Imagine being required by government, each and every day, to handle and use money that says, "God is a myth." I suspect you would find it offensive. Leaving references to god off of our money renders the money neutral - anyone can use it - it denies and promotes nothing, which is exactly what the government's role in religions SHOULD be. The issue of religion has nothing to do with our money.
Perhaps that puts me in the category of wanting to "do away with any reference to christianity" to you. From my side of that argument, it puts me in the position of wanting ALL religions (including the religion of atheism) to be on a level playing field with respect to our government. You should have every right, as a citizen, to advance the cause of Christ. Government should not.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIt seems to me - and, yeah, it's just my opinion - that there's a real hatred for Trump. Not just a disagreement with his policies or his sordid past, but a deep-seated hatred. I never felt that for the Clintons, even though I thought they were evil.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostRight now, there's a big "to do" going on about 80 miles from me where some idiot is driving around with a big "F Trump" sign on the back of her pickup truck, and "F you who voted for him". That kind of message, which will be seen by kids, is just insane. It's free speech, sure, but sheeeeesh.... how much hate to you have to have for that to overrule your sense of decency?
However, I agree that the bumper sticker is inappropriate and offensive. Much as I oppose Trump, it is over the top.Last edited by carpedm9587; 11-20-2017, 10:03 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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