Mass Shooting Las Vegas...

[Mountain Man]

http://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun...ralia-updated/

Again, you keep focusing on only gun statistics. I'm looking at the bigger picture, and the fact is, statistics show no reduction in the rate of overall violent crime following the infamous "buy back". Even suicide rates remain unchanged; people just found a different means to kill themselves. And as I pointed out in an earlier post that you studiously ignored, thete have been a number of mass killings in Australia in the past couple decades using knives, arson, blunt objects, and vehicles, and if we use the criteria from an article you posted earlier which counted injuries and not just deaths, Australia has even seen several mass shootings.

So I say again, if the goal is to make things safer then the infamous "buy back" program has been a miserable failure; so what's the real agenda?

[Mountain Man]

Here's the earlier post I mentioned:

Digging a little deeper, it seems that the success of Australia's gun laws is exaggerated. There have been several shooting sprees in the past 15-years, it's just that the gunmen didn't happen to kill a lot of people.

In 2002, two were killed and five wounded by a shooter at Monash University.
2011, three were killed and one wounded by a gunman in Hectorville.
2014, three were killed and 4 wounded in Sydney.
A 2014 shooting incident in New South Wales left 4 dead.
2014 in Wedderburn, three were killed by a gunman.

Then there have been a number of non-gun-related mass killings in recent years including several incidents of arson (15 dead; 11 dead), mass stabbings (5 dead; 8 dead), a blunt instrument attack that killed 5, and a 2017 car attack that killed 6 and injured dozens.

So yay for Australia's gun laws... I guess.

And that's not a comprehensive list. It's just what I found after spending a few minutes on an internet search.

[Adrift]

In other words, it's not guns that are the problem.

Correct. Bad people with access to guns are the problem, which, again is the reason I think a multi-pronged approach is required.

[Adrift]

Prisons, including maximum security ones, ought to be instructive here. Despite prisoners being regularly physically searched (often several times a day) and having your cell thoroughly searched as well, it is not difficult for them to get hold of either illegal drugs and/or weapons often including firearms. If you can not keep them out of an environment like that what hope do we have of keeping them out of a supposed free society?

Now, so that someone doesn't misconstrue what I'm saying, I'm not implying that we should just give up trying but rather pointing out to those who think that just by passing a law or declaring something illegal that it will somehow fix a problem that reality is simply not on your side here.

Why aren't you implying that we should just give up trying?

[rogue06]

Why aren't you implying that we should just give up trying?

Do you think it is a good idea that criminals, often violent, should have access to such things?

[Adrift]

Some times even legal products go through "dry spells" where they're all but unobtainable. That's what happened around here with lemons earlier this year. For whatever reason, for about three weeks, you simply could not find them. Even restaurants started putting a slice of lime in your glass of water instead on a lemon because they were just not to be found.

Most of the time when drugs are unobtainable, it's not because they're out of season, it's because strict law enforcement, and federal anti-drug agencies have made their access non-permissible, at least for a little bit anyways.

[rogue06]

Correct. Bad people with access to guns are the problem, which, again is the reason I think a multi-pronged approach is required.

No. Bad people are the problem. Even without access to firearms they can and do still commit mass murder as the truck driver in Marseilles demonstrated.

[Adrift]

And, most important I think, they are not as densely populated. I see a too dense population as the major problem with violence of all sorts.

Yeah, I'm sure that doesn't help.

[Adrift]

Quality control is often a major factor. Purity can fluctuate wildly so when an addict gets something that is stronger or laced with fentanyl accidental overdoses are not uncommon. Also, unscrupulous drug dealers (which is probably 99% of them) are well known for adding toxic substances (freaking battery acid was used back when I was young) to the drugs in order to increase the amount of drugs they have for sale and boost profits.

A case can be made that legalizing such drugs would lead to quality control through strict regulation and many deaths could be avoided.

Most overdoses that I'm aware of happen when the addict has attempted recovery, or when his supply has become unobtainable, and he switches to some other drug, and goes back to the drug thinking his body can cope with amounts that he had previously used, but not realizing that he no longer has the same level tolerance. I'm pretty sure that's how one of my friends died a couple years ago.

I'm honestly a bit surprised to find that so many of you here are for the legalization of hard drugs.

[Adrift]

If accessibility to firearms was a factor don't you think that the places where the firearms are obtained should be experiencing comparable rates of gun related violence. But they don't even come close. I guess something other than availability must be in play here, wouldn't you agree?

No. Not necessarily. It takes both accessibility and desire. Again, this is why I think a multi-pronged approach is necessary. It's not enough to simply get the guns off the street, though that is a start.

[rogue06]

Most of the time when drugs are unobtainable, it's not because they're out of season, it's because strict law enforcement, and federal anti-drug agencies have made their access non-permissible, at least for a little bit anyways.

The lemons in my example weren't out of season. They're readily available year around. Back in 1990 there was a "marijuana drought" that covered much of the country for a few months. Law enforcement of course took credit even putting up billboards boasting things like "If you think its dry now just wait until next year." Well, the next year there was no shortage. AFAICT there has not been anything even remotely close to it since. Experts figure the shortage was due to the larger scale smugglers and distributors shifting to more profitable, easier to transport drugs such as cocaine and the like. Others quickly filled the void to fill the demand.

[Adrift]

but gun restrictions have not lowered mass shootings which is the reason for the current push for more gun restrictions. and the reason for banning automatic weapons in 1986. banning automatic weapons did nothing to stop the rise in mass shootings.

all gun restrictions apparently do is disarm the innocent.

Gun restrictions haven't lowered mass shootings because it's still ridiculously easy to get your hand on a gun legally.

[Adrift]

An interesting note that is food for thought.

I think that most if not all here can agree that one person who knew a thing or two about non-violence was Mahatma Gandhi. In 1927 he wrote An Autobiography or The Story of My Experiments with Truth in which he said:

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

As I said, just food for thought.

There's an interesting Reddit thread on this quote in /r/AskHistorians (one of the least toxic subreddits) They make the point that the text as used by gun advocates is missing a bit of context,

[Adrift]

Do you think it is a good idea that criminals, often violent, should have access to such things?

Absolutely not, but following your logic, we ought to leave the access to it because preventative measures aren't effective to those who are determined.

[Adrift]

No. Bad people are the problem. Even without access to firearms they can and do still commit mass murder as the truck driver in Marseilles demonstrated.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree then.