New Zealand 2017 Election

[Starlight]

So you ARE paying for all those freebies after all.

It's the same in Germany. They get lots of vacation and benefits mandated by the government but then they pay through the nose in taxes. So not so free after all.

Did you think it was funded from a magic money tree that generated golden eggs as fruit? Of course it's from taxes.

There's not a particular huge difference in taxation levels between the US, NZ and Germany. Our governments mostly just make more efficient use of the tax money and don't waste in on gratuitous jobs programs for people like Bill. For example, in NZ our income tax is roughly the same as the US federal income tax last I checked, and our healthcare is included in that (another thing worth bearing in mind when comparing NZ and US salaries, because y'all have to pay your own healthcare). We don't have state taxes here cos we don't have any states. We have a 15% sales tax. And local councils fund themselves via a property tax that varies by region. (The majority of people don't need to ever fill out a tax return because if you work for a wage or salary the income tax is deducted automatically by the employer and paid to the government prior to you getting your pay check.)

[Starlight]

It helps if you can essentially get the US to defend you, so you don't have to spend so much on national defense. As a bonus, you can self-righteously point to the United States as bent on world domination and castigate it for how much it spends on the military!

So your theory is that the red (Europe) and purple (E Asia & Australasia) aren't big enough to defend themselves from the green (China) and/or the orange (Russia) and hence not only need the blue (US), but need it to be every bit as large as it is?

And you don't feel, looking at that chart, that the blue might be unnecessarily large in size? Especially given that the red is its close ally? And that much of the rest of the chart are its allies? Do you feel that the red just couldn't possibly survive without you and would be conquered overnight (by the orange maybe?) if you weren't there to back them up?

If you feel that the blue really does absolutely need to be as large as it is to ensure your own safety, where would you describe yourself on a spectrum from extremely ultra paranoid through to having recently been committed to an asylum due to intense paranoia?

[rogue06]

Did you think it was funded from a magic money tree that generated golden eggs as fruit? Of course it's from taxes.

Considering the number of people who talk blissfully about things like "free" health care and the like, at least in their cases it seems that they haven't quite figured out yet that it is anything but free and is paid for by their taxes (or in many cases, someone else's taxes -- often their parents).

[Sparko]

Did you think it was funded from a magic money tree that generated golden eggs as fruit? Of course it's from taxes.

There's not a particular huge difference in taxation levels between the US, NZ and Germany. Our governments mostly just make more efficient use of the tax money and don't waste in on gratuitous jobs programs for people like Bill. For example, in NZ our income tax is roughly the same as the US federal income tax last I checked, and our healthcare is included in that (another thing worth bearing in mind when comparing NZ and US salaries, because y'all have to pay your own healthcare). We don't have state taxes here cos we don't have any states. We have a 15% sales tax. And local councils fund themselves via a property tax that varies by region. (The majority of people don't need to ever fill out a tax return because if you work for a wage or salary the income tax is deducted automatically by the employer and paid to the government prior to you getting your pay check.)

15% sales tax? ouch. Ours is around 6% but varies from state to state. Some states don't even have state income taxes at all, like Tennesee.

My federal, state, property, etc taxes comes to about 20-25% of my gross income. The rest of the fees that come out of my check are for my own benefit: 401K retirement savings (matched by the company), healthcare insurance (company pays most of the premiums), parking (I park in a city garage rather than take public transportation).

Our taxes are taken out of the check too. We file taxes to find out if we still owe any extra or are getting some back. I usually have enough deductions from my home and stuff to get about $1000 back a year.

[rogue06]

So you ARE paying for all those freebies after all.

It's the same in Germany. They get lots of vacation and benefits mandated by the government but then they pay through the nose in taxes. So not so free after all.

And what if, for someone and their family, they want to skip vacation(s) this year so that they get a nice check at the end of the year (their unused vacation time) and spend it on something that they think is better? I know. The gall of some people. Thinking they know what's best for them

Seriously though, maybe they want or need a new car? Or another one? What if they want to move to a better neighborhood and want to save up for a couple years to help pay for it? What if instead of going on "holiday" someone would be happier with a new TV with a bigger screen? Shouldn't they have the right to decide?

Oops.

What am I thinking? Like people being allowed to decide what they want to do. How silly. Government knows what's best -- for every single one of us.

[One Bad Pig]

It's not 2008.

So your theory is that the red (Europe) and purple (E Asia & Australasia) aren't big enough to defend themselves from the green (China) and/or the orange (Russia) and hence not only need the blue (US), but need it to be every bit as large as it is?

And you don't feel, looking at that chart, that the blue might be unnecessarily large in size? Especially given that the red is its close ally? And that much of the rest of the chart are its allies? Do you feel that the red just couldn't possibly survive without you and would be conquered overnight (by the orange maybe?) if you weren't there to back them up?

Percentage of worldwide spending in any one particular year (compiled by a group hostile to defense spending, to boot) is perhaps not the most meaningful way to approach the question.

If you feel that the blue really does absolutely need to be as large as it is to ensure your own safety, where would you describe yourself on a spectrum from extremely ultra paranoid through to having recently been committed to an asylum due to intense paranoia?

You're a hoot, starlight.

[Starlight]

Considering the number of people who talk blissfully about things like "free" health care and the like, at least in their cases it seems that they haven't quite figured out yet that it is anything but free and is paid for by their taxes (or in many cases, someone else's taxes -- often their parents).

Hmm, I think everyone knows that it's coming out of taxes and isn't free in some sort of magical way.

I think your obsession with talking about the fact that healthcare isn't truly "free" is something that's been indoctrinated into you by interest groups in the US who don't want to see healthcare become single-payer... because I notice there's not the same concern in the US around offense spending (or 'defense' as you guys quaintly put it) - when your country is debating whether to invade an additional country the discussion never seems to go to the question of "but can we afford it?" whereas that question comes up instantly any time there's thought of spending money on your own people. Mention free college and a zillion Republican heads pop up parroting "It's not really free, cos taxes! We can't afford it!" whereas propose an additional war for the exact same amount of money and you'll get zero Republican "It's not free! Taxes! We can't afford it!" parrots and the bill will sail through congress without serious discussion or media attention (as one did this year). And currently your Republican government has decided they can afford a 1-2 trillion dollar deficit in order to give tax cuts to their rich donors. But I guess you guys totally just can't afford things like tertiary education or government-provided healthcare for the average citizen like most other OECD countries have, cos they're not truly free.

[Starlight]

It's not 2008.

It hasn't changed much since then. I choose it because it grouped regions together in a clear way. More recent graphics I could find were less visually appealing. e.g.:

[rogue06]

I think your obsession with talking about the fact that healthcare isn't truly "free"

Do you think that you might have me confused with another poster?

[Starlight]

Do you think that you might have me confused with another poster?

No, you're one of many right-wing parrots here who pops up and says "but it's not truly 'free' cos taxes" whenever government-run healthcare/education aka free healthcare/education is mentioned, as demonstrated by your post above.

If you're trying to pretend that you've never done that before in the history of TWeb and that this is the first time you have ever performed that standard right-wing parroting, and are trying to force me to google through tweb's forums in an effort to waste my time proving you wrong and distract from the actual topic at hand... well sucks to be you cos I can't be bothered and I'm not falling for it.

[Starlight]

find a job so you don't have to actually work.

Bear in mind it's not as if NZ is an outlier in terms of getting these benefits, they are pretty standard across the Western world. It is the US that is the outlier for not having those kind of benefits.



Yes, on average in the US you get higher salaries, as Bill noted. But that's because you're working more hours and getting less benefits than the rest of the developed world. In other countries, people work 37.5 hours a week, and get paid for six weeks off work a year in benefits at minimum (above chart doesn't include sick leave or maternity leave), and don't have to pay for their own healthcare. Workers seem to get a pretty raw deal in the US.

[Terraceth]

Bear in mind it's not as if NZ is an outlier in terms of getting these benefits, they are pretty standard across the Western world. It is the US that is the outlier for not having those kind of benefits.

The chart is only statement on the legal minimums. It doesn't say anything about what people actually get on average, which it seems is the more pertinent point of comparison between countries.

[Starlight]

The chart is only statement on the legal minimums. It doesn't say anything about what people actually get on average, which it seems is the more pertinent point of comparison between countries.

Are you suggesting that US employers are particularly generous over and above legal limits? A particularly generous employer here would give +1 week annual leave and +1 week sick days beyond what is legally required, taking it to 7 weeks total per year plus public holidays, but that would be perhaps the 5% most generous companies.

Sources I'm seeing on google regarding the US suggest to me that ~25% of employees get no leave at all, but that most people in the US get 10 days annual leave plus some public holidays, and the military gets 30 days plus public holidays.

[Terraceth]

Are you suggesting that US employers are particularly generous over and above legal limits?

Well anyone who offers annual leave is inherently above legal limits, so obviously some do. The point is that analyzing the minimum doesn't tell much, the average is what's important. A minimum just says the minimum, it says nothing about the average (higher minimums generally lead to higher averages, but not inherently). That's why a proper comparison would be a comparison of average to average--and to also try to count all forms of leave, not just annual (functionally, sick leave is basically extra annual leave in the US).

I wouldn't be surprised if the average for those other countries is still higher, but it'd be a whole lot more honest to compare average to average than to compare required largely meaningless minimum requirements.

[Starlight]

I wouldn't be surprised if the average for those other countries is still higher, but it'd be a whole lot more honest to compare average to average than to compare required largely meaningless minimum requirements.

I disagree, and feel you are dishonestly trying to escape learning the basic lesson from this data by pretending it's the wrong data. This tells you what everyone is guaranteed by law at a minimum. That is very interesting in and of itself. Particularly it is of interest here because the minimum all across the OECD is significantly above what Americans are aware is the approximate average in the US. Sparko's description of it was that people in NZ and other Western countries with jobs "don't have to actually work".

If you happened to know that in general people tended to get way above the minimum, then looking at the averages might be interesting, but I suspect that information is much harder to obtain. I can tell you that for NZ, the average is not significantly above the minimum, and companies offering above the minimum are the exception not the rule. I have no reason to believe it is common in any of the European countries either, although perhaps in the ones with the strongest unions their union members might have achieved slightly better deals. Countries I would want to look more closely at due to their low legal minimums are Japan, Canada, and the US.