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Last edited by Terraceth; 09-22-2017, 06:47 PM.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostAlthough Answers In Genesis (which, whenever I see the URL for, I constantly misread it as "Answering Genesis") is a very dubious source, that doesn't mean they're inherently wrong, and they're relatively correct on this one. The big thing that got Galileo in hot water was the fact that the Pope thought Galileo was mocking him in the book (specifically, by putting some of his statements in the character who was portrayed as being in the wrong). I don't think it's known for certain whether Galileo was trying to engage in any mockery, but that's what Pope Urban thought, and guess what, mocking a guy with a lot of power can get you in trouble.
While the issue is considerably more complicated than is often portrayed
While Urban VIII disagreed with Galileo he was for the most part sympathetic up until Galileo in what can only be described as a world-class bone-headed move, seems to have gone out of his way to insult this ally. In his landmark The Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems Galileo put Urban's arguments in the mouth of Simplicio, an inept ignoramus (in Italian the name means "simpleton"). This resulted in Urban stepping aside and allowing those who wanted Galileo investigated for heresy. As one of those assigned to investigate Galileo for his trial, Jesuit Father Melchior Inchofer said:
The opinion of the earths motion is of all heresies the most abominable, the most pernicious, the most scandalous; the immovability of the earth is thrice sacred; argument against the immortality of the soul, the existence of God, and the incarnation, should be tolerated sooner than an argument to prove that the earth moves.
PS: When I mentioned early heliocentric models in a previous post I said Euclid. I meant Pythagoras.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostAlthough Answers In Genesis (which, whenever I see the URL for, I constantly misread it as "Answering Genesis") is a very dubious source, that doesn't mean they're inherently wrong, and they're relatively correct on this one. The big thing that got Galileo in hot water was the fact that the Pope thought Galileo was mocking him in the book (specifically, by putting some of his statements in the character who was portrayed as being in the wrong). I don't think it's known for certain whether Galileo was trying to engage in any mockery, but that's what Pope Urban thought, and guess what, mocking a guy with a lot of power can get you in trouble.
The point is, Galileo's persecution had nothing to do with promoting heliocentrism, a hypothesis that many in the church at the time were sympathetic to but which lacked definitive proof. At one point, Galileo was cautioned to refer to it only as a hypothesis, but he doggedly insisted that it was proven, and when asked to present his proofs, he refused on the grounds that he was the only person smart enough to understand them!
Bottom line, it wasn't the dogmatic battle between Christianity and science that some make it out to be.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postyou truly are a moron, Tassman. The geocentric model was not invented by Christians. The greeks used it hundreds of years before Jesus. It was early scientists who came up with it from observations. They even calculated the orbits of the planets.Last edited by Tassman; 09-22-2017, 08:38 PM.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIf you read the article, it points out that Galileo was extremely arrogant and had a well-deserved reputation for advancing his arguments through mockery and a razor-sharp wit, so Pope Urban was likely correct.
The point is, Galileo's persecution had nothing to do with promoting heliocentrism, a hypothesis that many in the church at the time were sympathetic to but which lacked definitive proof. At one point, Galileo was cautioned to refer to it only as a hypothesis, but he doggedly insisted that it was proven, and when asked to present his proofs, he refused on the grounds that he was the only person smart enough to understand them!
Bottom line, it wasn't the dogmatic battle between Christianity and science that some make it out to be.
There was a large, influential segment of the Catholic hierarchy who wanted Galileo investigated for promoting heresy well before he pissed off the pope. And Galileo didn't fare well with the Protestants like Philip Melanchthon and Martin Luther and to a lesser extent Calvin who could not care less that Galileo had insulted Urban who they pretty much considered was the Antichrist. In fact, some historians posit that papal denunciation of heliocentrism may have served to make it more palatable to Lutherans.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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According to the article, it was more a political manuever by Urban wanting to get revenge on Galileo than it was a firm conviction that he was heretical. Like I said, there were many in the church at the time who were sympathetic to the heliocentric hypothesis. Galileo just did a very poor job of proving it and made a lot of enemies along the way thanks to his massive ego and the viciousness with which he attacked his rivals.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAccording to the article, it was more a political manuever by Urban wanting to get revenge on Galileo than it was a firm conviction that he was heretical. Like I said, there were many in the church at the time who were sympathetic to the heliocentric hypothesis. Galileo just did a very poor job of proving it and made a lot of enemies along the way thanks to his massive ego and the viciousness with which he attacked his rivals.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostGee Shunya, but that reasoning we can conclude that the current Heliocentric model is a religious view since most Christians believe in it today.
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostUrban's feelings, or his desire for revenge against Galileo, have nothing to do with the actual crime for which Galileo was charged.
As much as a simpleton like you wants to believe it, this wasn't a war of science versus religion. On the contrary, "One must not forget that the Copernican hypothesis itself was never denied by the Inquisition, but only that it was not allowed to be presented as a scientifically proven theory or as a truth," which was a perfectly sensible position to take at the time.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Charles View PostWell, Sparko, face the challenge. Tassman pointed to the fact that Luther held his position based on his reading of the Bible. Not because most other Christians believed it. So you are failing to confront the issue. But then again, it is a rather tough issue.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Posthttps://answersingenesis.org/creatio...c-hagiography/
As much as a simpleton like you wants to believe it, this wasn't a war of science versus religion. On the contrary, "One must not forget that the Copernican hypothesis itself was never denied by the Inquisition, but only that it was not allowed to be presented as a scientifically proven theory or as a truth," which was a perfectly sensible position to take at the time.
We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of and that consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that, first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, you abjure, curse, and detest before use the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church in the form to be prescribed by us for you.
The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture.
The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith.
Read the entire text: http://www.famous-trials.com/galileo...2-condemnation
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