Antifa: Promoting peace... through violence!

[Terraceth]

I've seen both left-wing and right-wing anarchists. I guess the left/right political spectrum is sometimes like the world, where if you go all the way to the edge, you end up looping around to the other side.

[Adrift]

Well, so is Y'hoshua and I don't like to label myself anymore, but that's closest.

ETA: So is Dee Dee!

I've come across plenty of an-caps in my time online. I used to be on a political discussion board years ago. There was a planned invasion by dozens of them from some other board. They were quite unpleasant, just to be honest. I remember a significant amount were Holocaust deniers too.

I was intrigued by their viewpoints on government and economics and tried to engage, but most didn't seem to want to, unfortunately.

I've seen both left-wing and right-wing anarchists. I guess the left/right political spectrum is sometimes like the world, where if you go all the way to the edge, you end up looping around to the other side.

Wow! I had no idea that they were so well represented. I've been associated with anarchists for some 25 years now, and they've all been left-leaning, anti-capitalists. Is this a relatively recent thing, or have I just been completely sheltered? I thought Dee Dee was a Libertarian. Are Libertarians considered anarchists? It was my understanding that there was a distinction between the two ideologies.

[thewriteranon]

Wow! I had no idea that they were so well represented. I've been associated with anarchists for some 25 years now, and they've all been left-leaning, anti-capitalists. Is this a relatively recent thing, or have I just been completely sheltered? I thought Dee Dee was a Libertarian. Are Libertarians considered anarchists? It was my understanding that there was a distinction between the two ideologies.

Nope. She considers herself a radical Libertarian, i.e. an anarcho-capitalist within the official Libertarian party. She sees anarcho-capitalism as taking the Libertarian position/platform to its rational conclusion.

ETA: The anarcho-capitalism stream is gaining steam. Check out Tom Woods and Seamus Coughlin (FreedomToons) for two more relatively prominent Christian examples.

[Adrift]

Nope. She considers herself a radical Libertarian, i.e. an anarcho-capitalist within the official Libertarian party. She sees anarcho-capitalism as taking the Libertarian position/platform to its rational conclusion.

ETA: The anarcho-capitalism stream is gaining steam. Check out Tom Woods and Seamus Coughlin (FreedomToons) for two more relatively prominent Christian examples.

Huh. Didn't know that. So is it my imagination or has the whole Libertarian thing really taken off in the last decade or so? Why is that? Also, as far as Christian anarchists, my mind immediately goes to Tolstoy (and maybe Thoreau). Do modern Christian libertarian/anarchists credit him at all for their view?

[thewriteranon]

Huh. Didn't know that. So is it my imagination or has the whole Libertarian thing really taken off in the last decade or so? Why is that? Also, as far as Christian anarchists, my mind immediately goes to Tolstoy (and maybe Thoreau). Do modern Christian libertarian/anarchists credit him at all for their view?

I mean, Tolstoy is brought up a bit, but most people honestly credit their road down liberty (all the way from libertarian to minarchist to anarchist) to Ron Paul. J.R.R Tolkien gets a quote or two from Libertarian Catholic (he's got one where he ponders his political leanings and says he finds himself leaning progressively toward anarchism).

As far as terminology goes, I freely use libertarian and anarchist and "liberty-minded" to talk about the same family of thought. Most anarcho-capitalists see anarchism as a logical conclusion so they hang in not-specifically-anarchist groups, too. That is, if they're not of the irritating variety.

There are plenty of those, too.

[Adrift]

I mean, Tolstoy is brought up a bit, but most people honestly credit their road down liberty (all the way from libertarian to minarchist to anarchist) to Ron Paul.

Ah okay, that makes sense.

J.R.R Tolkien gets a quote or two from Libertarian Catholic (he's got one where he ponders his political leanings and says he finds himself leaning progressively toward anarchism).

As far as terminology goes, I freely use libertarian and anarchist and "liberty-minded" to talk about the same family of thought. Most anarcho-capitalists see anarchism as a logical conclusion so they hang in not-specifically-anarchist groups, too. That is, if they're not of the irritating variety.

There are plenty of those, too.

Hmm. I've always considered myself relatively apolitical, so the idea that libertarians consider themselves anarchist, and that there's a growing Christian anarchist movement is something that's pretty much news to me. Thanks for offering some insight into this. Do you know if there's any shared ground between Christian libertarian-styled anarcho-capitalists and, say, the New Monastic movements? I've always consider New Monastics on the fringes of Christian anarchism. Books like That Holy Anarchist: Reflections on Christianity & Anarchism suggest there's a connection between New Monasticism and the the Catholic Worker Movement with anarchism, but they also sound pretty left-leaning to me.

[Terraceth]

Wow! I had no idea that they were so well represented. I've been associated with anarchists for some 25 years now, and they've all been left-leaning, anti-capitalists. Is this a relatively recent thing, or have I just been completely sheltered? I thought Dee Dee was a Libertarian. Are Libertarians considered anarchists? It was my understanding that there was a distinction between the two ideologies.

Libertarianism is largely the idea of others having less control over your life and you having the right to do what you want and live how you want. Naturally, that's just vague enough of an idea to cause all sorts of arguments as to what qualifies as libertarian, but politically speaking it leads to a desire for smaller government. If you go all the way with this idea, you end up with anarchism, so you tend to find a decent number of libertarians who consider themselves anarchists.

Of course, with the issue of libertarians, you run into the confusion of the meaning of "libertarian" due to the existence of the Libertarian Party. Usually, writing Libertarian uppercase refers to someone who is a member of the party (or at least affiliated with it), whereas libertarian in lowercase refers to someone who considers themselves a believer in libertarianism but is not necessarily a member of the party or someone who interprets libertarianism in the same way as the party. I guess that's the issue you run into when you name your party after an ideology.

[Adrift]

Libertarianism is largely the idea of others having less control over your life and you having the right to do what you want and live how you want. Naturally, that's just vague enough of an idea to cause all sorts of arguments as to what qualifies as libertarian, but politically speaking it leads to a desire for smaller government. If you go all the way with this idea, you end up with anarchism, so you tend to find a decent number of libertarians who consider themselves anarchists.

Of course, with the issue of libertarians, you run into the confusion of the meaning of "libertarian" due to the existence of the Libertarian Party. Usually, writing Libertarian uppercase refers to someone who is a member of the party (or at least affiliated with it), whereas libertarian in lowercase refers to someone who considers themselves a believer in libertarianism but is not necessarily a member of the party or someone who interprets libertarianism in the same way as the party. I guess that's the issue you run into when you name your party after an ideology.

Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

[thewriteranon]

Ah okay, that makes sense.



Hmm. I've always considered myself relatively apolitical, so the idea that libertarians consider themselves anarchist, and that there's a growing Christian anarchist movement is something that's pretty much news to me. Thanks for offering some insight into this. Do you know if there's any shared ground between Christian libertarian-styled anarcho-capitalists and, say, the New Monastic movements? I've always consider New Monastics on the fringes of Christian anarchism. Books like That Holy Anarchist: Reflections on Christianity & Anarchism suggest there's a connection between New Monasticism and the the Catholic Worker Movement with anarchism, but they also sound pretty left-leaning to me.

I haven't seen much talk about new monasticism. Occasionally old school monasticism gets brought up, especially if someone left leaning comes in to argue, but the general consensus is that it fits fine in the anarcho-capitaliat world since it is entirely voluntary.

[Sparko]

Well, so is Y'hoshua and I don't like to label myself anymore, but that's closest.

ETA: So is Dee Dee!

There seem to be two types of anarchists. The libertarian anarchists who want peace and order but no government, and the chaotic anarchists who just want to destroy everything and live like mad max.

[Zymologist]

There seem to be two types of anarchists. The libertarian anarchists who want peace and order but no government, and the chaotic anarchists who just want to destroy everything and live like mad max.

I like peace and order, but I also like Mad Max. What's a guy to do?

[thewriteranon]

There seem to be two types of anarchists. The libertarian anarchists who want peace and order but no government, and the chaotic anarchists who just want to destroy everything and live like mad max.

The chaotic ones seem to always be of the anarcho-communist variety. There are all sorts of flavors of anarchist but ancaps consider the Non-Aggression Principle central to their anarchism, which leads to peaceful attitudes (sometimes with some light civil "crimes" such as paying other people's parking meters, although there are some that get foamy a the mouth around government workers). There are specific groups of anarcho-pacifists, too. Then there's anarcho-primitivists, who are like an anarchist version of Amish, wanting us to give up all our tech, but you don't hear from them much on the internet for obvious reasons. There are also anarcho-feminists and other lefty types but they tend to hang with the anarcho-communists anyway.

Oh, I think Dante also identifies with anarcho-capitalism, but you'd have to double check with him. We actually have a pretty strong contingent here on tweb.

[Sparko]

I like peace and order, but I also like Mad Max. What's a guy to do?

Thunderdome.

[Sparko]

The chaotic ones seem to always be of the anarcho-communist variety. There are all sorts of flavors of anarchist but ancaps consider the Non-Aggression Principle central to their anarchism, which leads to peaceful attitudes (sometimes with some light civil "crimes" such as paying other people's parking meters, although there are some that get foamy a the mouth around government workers). There are specific groups of anarcho-pacifists, too. Then there's anarcho-primitivists, who are like an anarchist version of Amish, wanting us to give up all our tech, but you don't hear from them much on the internet for obvious reasons. There are also anarcho-feminists and other lefty types but they tend to hang with the anarcho-communists anyway.

Oh, I think Dante also identifies with anarcho-capitalism, but you'd have to double check with him. We actually have a pretty strong contingent here on tweb.

If even the peaceful anarchists got their way (no government or laws) they would just be opening the door to all of the radical violent anarchists to destroy everything and there would be nothing to stop them. That is the problem I have with Libertarianism taken to it's logical anarchist conclusion. Sounds nice in principal, but when you factor actual human nature into it, you will just end up with chaos and injustice for all. The only real solution is Jesus.

[thewriteranon]

If even the peaceful anarchists got their way (no government or laws) they would just be opening the door to all of the radical violent anarchists to destroy everything and there would be nothing to stop them. That is the problem I have with Libertarianism taken to it's logical anarchist conclusion. Sounds nice in principal, but when you factor actual human nature into it, you will just end up with chaos and injustice for all. The only real solution is Jesus.

That's the major place where Christian anarchists differ from our non-religious political brothers here, because we would agree that fundamentally all y'all need Jesus.