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Speech and What it Tells Us About America

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  • Speech and What it Tells Us About America

    Speech in the United States falls into three broad groups, separated by two demarcations. There have always been debates as to where those lines should be drawn, but I think everyone understands they exist.

    The first line separates what is protected under the First Amendment from what is not. The First Amendment prohibits the government from interfering in the speech of its citizens. The primary intent was to keep the government from punishing political and religious speech it did not agree with. It was driven by the experiences of the founders under a monarchy and the early citizens who had experienced religious persecution. But it was written to be very broad, essentially granting citizens the freedom to express themselves as they wished.

    As with all rights, however, there are limits. Time and time again, the courts have upheld that some speech is not protected, including speech that incites people to break the law (including violence), true threats, defamation, obscenity, child pornography, false advertising, speech integral to criminal conduct, and incitement to suicide, to name a few. The specific list changes, and is subject to debate, but there is most definitely speech that is NOT protected by the First Amendment. The courts have repeatedly affirmed this.

    The second line separates speech that is considered “socially acceptable” from speech that is not. Again, where that line is drawn can vary. Most of us would probably agree that calling someone a vulgar name or lying is not socially acceptable speech. I suspect most of us would also agree that praising someone or describing a sunset is perfectly acceptable speech.

    Let’s put all of human speech on a continuum, with the most socially acceptable and most protected speech to the right and the least socially acceptable and least protected to the left. I realize “left” and “right” are loaded words these days, but I am referring to direction - not political leaning. As we move from left to right on our line, we will encounter the “protected/not-protected” line first. Some distance further, we will encounter the socially-acceptable/not-socially-acceptable line.

    Between these two lines is an important body of speech. It is the speech that is protected by the First Amendment but is widely seen as “socially unacceptable.” This is also a space of enormous discord in modern America. Why? Because speech that was once considered “socially unacceptable” has been increasingly normalized in our society. Politeness has been labeled “politically correct.” Name calling that is barely above what you would hear in an elementary school playground is now regularly bandied about at political rallies, and even in the halls of Congress. Lying is no longer verboten in the public sphere: it is embraced and encouraged as a political tool. A politician who lies and is caught lying is no longer at risk of losing their political career; as long as they double down and repeat the lie over and over, they are lauded and praised. The lie is taken up as “the new truth,” even in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. It used to be that trolling was considered a bad thing, a sign that the person doing the trolling was morally compromised. Now it is a badge of honor. It is something to be aspired to. Even repeated “slips,” where Nazi-like propaganda gets injected into a major candidate’s campaign is no longer a death knell for the candidate.

    Trump did not invent this world. Lying, calling names, trolling, and even Nazi-like propaganda existed long before Trump. No - Trump did not invent any of this. What he did was normalize it. What he did was demonstrate that such behavior is becoming of a President of this country, and a candidate for that office. He has appealed to the most base nature in all of us and he found a willing audience, ironically, in the party of “family values,” “law and order,” and “moral rectitude.”

    Today, there is nothing that Mr. Trump can say that will alienate his base. They will simply excuse the behavior and eventually copy it. There is nothing Mr. Trump can do that will alienate his base. They will find a way to rationalize any act. Each new low simply finds new rationalizations as Mr. Trump steadily works the entire Republican/conservative part of our country deeper and deeper into behaviors they once would have considered “immoral,” but now embrace and cheer. I am not even certain that they can see the path they are on. This is why I believe that the MAGA base is essentially a cult of personality. I can think of nothing that will shake this core loose from its leader.

    That leaves the rest of us. The only way to ensure that the slide towards the dark side of human nature does not continue is to show Mr. Trump the door this fall. If you are a moderate, and still thinking about how to cast your vote, please look very carefully at the path this nation has trod since May of 2015, and think very hard before you cast that vote. Mr. Trump deserves neither our allegiance nor our loyalty. He deserves to be told, “we are better than this - and we will no longer walk this road.” Once he is gone, we will have an enormous amount of work to do to return to some level of “normalcy” and perhaps even draw closer to the nation we all believe we can be.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

    Trump did not invent this world. Lying, calling names, trolling, and even Nazi-like propaganda existed long before Trump. No - Trump did not invent any of this. What he did was normalize it. What he did was demonstrate that such behavior is becoming of a President of this country, and a candidate for that office. He has appealed to the most base nature in all of us and he found a willing audience, ironically, in the party of “family values,” “law and order,” and “moral rectitude.”
    You just can't help yourself, can you. TDS strikes again...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      "Politeness" has not been labeled political correctness. You overlooking Biden's lies. Nowhere has "Nazi-like propaganda" been injected. You also don't seem to know the history of the "halls of Congress". As for "new truth" you're confused with the Left media complex.

      I have bo loyalty or allegiance to Trump, Your faux concern and neutrality is a thin disguise.
      Last edited by Diogenes; 05-25-2024, 06:58 PM.
      P1) If , then I win.

      P2)

      C) I win.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        "Politeness" has not been labeled political correctness.
        On this, I doubt we will agree. There are simply too many instances of simple calls for politeness to be labeled "politically correct," "snowflakes" and the like for this claim of yours to be true.

        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        You overlooking Biden's lies.
        I'm actually not, but out of curiosity, what lies are you thinking about when you write this?

        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        Nowhere "Nazi-like propaganda" been injected.
        The examples of Nazi-Like language being injected into the Trump campaign are numerous and well documented, Dio - right down to the latest "Reich" in a video posted by the campaign. There's always an explanation and an excuse, never an apology, and they are too frequent for them to all be "accidents." Either this is a very poorly run campaign, or it's intentional. I don't see an alternative.

        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        You also don't seem to know the history of the "halls of Congress".
        Are you suggesting the things I listed have NOT been happening in the halls of Congress?

        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        As for "new truth" you're confused with the Left media complex.
        I don't subscribe to either the "left media complex" or the "right media complex." I make sure to draw from sources across the political spectrum, with a preference for those in the middle. It takes less work to sort outright lie or spin from fact in the more centrist sources.

        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        I have bo loyalty or allegiance to Trump, Your faux concern and neutrality is a thin disguise.
        I don't remember claiming I was "neutral."
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

          On this, I doubt we will agree. There are simply too many instances of simple calls for politeness to be labeled "politically correct," "snowflakes" and the like for this claim of yours to be true.

          Demands of self-censorship and forced speech are not "simple calls for politeness".



          I'm actually not, but out of curiosity, what lies are you thinking about when you write this?
          Rogue has a cache of them. And Biden's complete gaffes.


          The examples of Nazi-Like language being injected into the Trump campaign are numerous and well documented, Dio - right down to the latest "Reich" in a video posted by the campaign. There's always an explanation and an excuse, never an apology, and they are too frequent for them to all be "accidents." Either this is a very poorly run campaign, or it's intentional. I don't see an alternative.
          Trump’s ‘unified Reich’ video appears to trace origins to a Turkish graphic designer

          https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/24/media...ich/index.html



          Are you suggesting the things I listed have NOT been happening in the halls of Congress?
          No where did you bring up Schiff's actions. Also, Congress has seen a canning.

          I don't subscribe to either the "left media complex" or the "right media complex." I make sure to draw from sources across the political spectrum, with a preference for those in the middle. It takes less work to sort outright lie or spin from fact in the more centrist sources.
          You're not a centrist. ETA: NPR isn't a centrist source.


          I don't remember claiming I was "neutral."

          At no point did I say you claimed as much.
          Last edited by Diogenes; 05-25-2024, 07:22 PM.
          P1) If , then I win.

          P2)

          C) I win.

          Comment


          • #6
            As a point, if we're going to get into the weeds about being "Nazi-esque" then FDR and Eisenhower would also qualify.


            ETA: The Defense Production Act would probably also count.
            Last edited by Diogenes; 05-25-2024, 07:20 PM.
            P1) If , then I win.

            P2)

            C) I win.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
              Demands of self-censorship and forced speech are not "simple calls for politeness".
              Since that was not what I was referring to, I have no response.

              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
              Rogue has a cache of them. And Biden's complete gaffes.
              You mean you cannot come up with a single example that prompted that comment?

              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
              Trump’s ‘unified Reich’ video appears to trace origins to a Turkish graphic designer

              https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/24/media...ich/index.html
              Where it traces to is irrelevant to me. That it was selected and posted on a campaign-related feed is. There are simply too many of these "mistakes" for them all to be mistakes. As I said, either it is a very poorly run campaign, or these are not all slips. To think otherwise simply strains credulity.

              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
              No where did you bring up Schiff's actions. Also, Congress has seen a canning.
              And how does that negate what I said?

              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
              You're not a centrist. ETA: NPR isn't a centrist source.
              Fortunately for me - your opinion doesn't actually change who or what I am.

              NPR is considered, by most ranking sites, to be left of center. There are few media outlets that are dead center. If they remain reasonably close to the center, I consider them part of the central core. That is why WSJ is on the list. They skew slightly right, but not extremely right. Generally, their language is moderate and the news they report can be trusted to have minimal spin, minimal error, and virtually no disinformation. The same is generally true of NPR, but to the left.

              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
              At no point did I say you claimed as much.
              "Your faux concern and neutrality is a thin disguise"

              Preceded by "your," this statement says that I am the one with a "faux neutrality" and "faux concern." Setting aside the impossibility of you actually knowing what is in my mind, it would appear that you are indeed suggesting that I claim/believe I am "neutral." I am by no means neutral. Concerned, yes. Neutral, no.
              Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-25-2024, 07:43 PM.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                As a point, if we're going to get into the weeds about being "Nazi-esque" then FDR and Eisenhower would also qualify.

                ETA: The Defense Production Act would probably also count.
                Umm... no. IMO, not even slightly. There is simply no comparison. Perhaps Andrew Jackson. Definitely McCarthy.

                Out of curiosity, how do you define "Nazi-esque?" That may be the source of our disagreement.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                  Demands of self-censorship and forced speech are not "simple calls for politeness".
                  Kinda like -a grown man can pretend all he wants that he is actually a cute cuddly female feline, but I should not be compelled to be complicit in his delusion.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To summarize the opening post: "Free speech kinda sucks. Vote for anybody but Trump."
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                      Umm... no. IMO, not even slightly. There is simply no comparison. Perhaps Andrew Jackson. Definitely McCarthy.
                      You may have your opinion. In McCarthy defense, he was right about Communist infiltration. (Not to be confused necessarily with the House Committee of UnAmerican Activities Committee as McCarthy was a Senator.)

                      Jackson? Hardly.

                      Out of curiosity, how do you define "Nazi-esque?" That may be the source of our disagreement.
                      The Interstate Highway and Defense System was modeled on the Autobahn.

                      Much like the Nazis, FDR created massive public works programs like the CCC. FDR's interment of American citizens was also anti-democratic. If we're looking at actual fascism, the War Production Board and other means of control of the economy to serve the State would likely count.


                      FDR's court packing scheme was certainly an attempt to undermine the independence of SCOTUS.
                      P1) If , then I win.

                      P2)

                      C) I win.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Speech in the United States falls into three broad groups, separated by two demarcations. There have always been debates as to where those lines should be drawn, but I think everyone understands they exist.

                        The first line separates what is protected under the First Amendment from what is not. The First Amendment prohibits the government from interfering in the speech of its citizens. The primary intent was to keep the government from punishing political and religious speech it did not agree with. It was driven by the experiences of the founders under a monarchy and the early citizens who had experienced religious persecution. But it was written to be very broad, essentially granting citizens the freedom to express themselves as they wished.

                        As with all rights, however, there are limits. Time and time again, the courts have upheld that some speech is not protected, including speech that incites people to break the law (including violence), true threats, defamation, obscenity, child pornography, false advertising, speech integral to criminal conduct, and incitement to suicide, to name a few. The specific list changes, and is subject to debate, but there is most definitely speech that is NOT protected by the First Amendment. The courts have repeatedly affirmed this.

                        The second line separates speech that is considered “socially acceptable” from speech that is not. Again, where that line is drawn can vary. Most of us would probably agree that calling someone a vulgar name or lying is not socially acceptable speech. I suspect most of us would also agree that praising someone or describing a sunset is perfectly acceptable speech.

                        Let’s put all of human speech on a continuum, with the most socially acceptable and most protected speech to the right and the least socially acceptable and least protected to the left. I realize “left” and “right” are loaded words these days, but I am referring to direction - not political leaning. As we move from left to right on our line, we will encounter the “protected/not-protected” line first. Some distance further, we will encounter the socially-acceptable/not-socially-acceptable line.

                        Between these two lines is an important body of speech. It is the speech that is protected by the First Amendment but is widely seen as “socially unacceptable.” This is also a space of enormous discord in modern America. Why? Because speech that was once considered “socially unacceptable” has been increasingly normalized in our society. Politeness has been labeled “politically correct.” Name calling that is barely above what you would hear in an elementary school playground is now regularly bandied about at political rallies, and even in the halls of Congress. Lying is no longer verboten in the public sphere: it is embraced and encouraged as a political tool. A politician who lies and is caught lying is no longer at risk of losing their political career; as long as they double down and repeat the lie over and over, they are lauded and praised. The lie is taken up as “the new truth,” even in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. It used to be that trolling was considered a bad thing, a sign that the person doing the trolling was morally compromised. Now it is a badge of honor. It is something to be aspired to. Even repeated “slips,” where Nazi-like propaganda gets injected into a major candidate’s campaign is no longer a death knell for the candidate.

                        Trump did not invent this world. Lying, calling names, trolling, and even Nazi-like propaganda existed long before Trump. No - Trump did not invent any of this. What he did was normalize it. What he did was demonstrate that such behavior is becoming of a President of this country, and a candidate for that office. He has appealed to the most base nature in all of us and he found a willing audience, ironically, in the party of “family values,” “law and order,” and “moral rectitude.”

                        Today, there is nothing that Mr. Trump can say that will alienate his base. They will simply excuse the behavior and eventually copy it. There is nothing Mr. Trump can do that will alienate his base. They will find a way to rationalize any act. Each new low simply finds new rationalizations as Mr. Trump steadily works the entire Republican/conservative part of our country deeper and deeper into behaviors they once would have considered “immoral,” but now embrace and cheer. I am not even certain that they can see the path they are on. This is why I believe that the MAGA base is essentially a cult of personality. I can think of nothing that will shake this core loose from its leader.

                        That leaves the rest of us. The only way to ensure that the slide towards the dark side of human nature does not continue is to show Mr. Trump the door this fall. If you are a moderate, and still thinking about how to cast your vote, please look very carefully at the path this nation has trod since May of 2015, and think very hard before you cast that vote. Mr. Trump deserves neither our allegiance nor our loyalty. He deserves to be told, “we are better than this - and we will no longer walk this road.” Once he is gone, we will have an enormous amount of work to do to return to some level of “normalcy” and perhaps even draw closer to the nation we all believe we can be.
                        Comparing the "Not your enemy" post with the recent post on free speech reveals some contradictions and points of consistency in the poster's approach to political discourse.
                        Consistencies


                        Critique of Trump and MAGA Movement: In both posts, the poster consistently critiques Trump and the MAGA movement. In the "Not your enemy" post, the poster asserts, "He is calling for you to let go of your ethical norms and simply succumb to being a troll and a member of his cult of personality." Similarly, in the recent post, the poster argues, "Trump did not invent this world... What he did was normalize it... He has appealed to the most base nature in all of us and he found a willing audience."

                        Call for Better Political Standards: Both posts express a desire for higher standards in political behavior. The "Not your enemy" post calls for respectful discourse: "We need to exchange views. We need to talk, debate, even argue." In the recent post, the poster laments the erosion of socially acceptable speech: "Politeness has been labeled 'politically correct.' Name calling... is now regularly bandied about... Lying is no longer verboten."
                        Contradictions


                        Tone and Approach: The "Not your enemy" post emphasizes dialogue and mutual respect despite disagreements: "Disagreement does not make me your enemy." The post encourages seeing opponents as fellow citizens: "I am not your enemy. I am your fellow American citizen." However, the recent post employs a more confrontational tone towards Trump supporters, describing the MAGA movement as a "cult of personality" and stating, "There is nothing that Mr. Trump can say that will alienate his base. They will simply excuse the behavior and eventually copy it." This generalization can alienate the very individuals the poster previously sought to engage in respectful dialogue.

                        Focus on Unity vs. Division: The "Not your enemy" post calls for unity and collaboration: "In a democracy, disagreement is normal and expected... We need to have a discussion... to arrive at a reasonable compromise." In contrast, the recent post emphasizes the division caused by Trump: "The only way to ensure that the slide towards the dark side of human nature does not continue is to show Mr. Trump the door this fall." While both posts seek to address harmful political behavior, the recent post's focus on division may undermine the earlier call for unity.
                        Specific Passages Highlighting the Problem
                        1. "Not your enemy" post: "We need to have a discussion. We need to exchange views. We need to talk, debate, even argue."
                        2. Recent post: "There is nothing that Mr. Trump can say that will alienate his base. They will simply excuse the behavior and eventually copy it."

                        The inclusive language of the first passage contrasts with the generalization in the second, which can alienate Trump supporters and hinder productive dialogue.
                        1. "Not your enemy" post: "Disagreement does not make me your enemy."
                        2. Recent post: "Today, there is nothing that Mr. Trump can say that will alienate his base... This is why I believe that the MAGA base is essentially a cult of personality."

                        The first passage promotes the idea of seeing political opponents as fellow citizens, while the second reinforces a divisive narrative, suggesting an unbridgeable gap.
                        Conclusion


                        To truly embody the principles advocated in the "Not your enemy" post, the poster could benefit from maintaining a consistent tone of respect and openness, even while critiquing harmful political behavior. This approach would better align with the call for unity and respectful discourse, ensuring that the important critique of misinformation and harmful ideologies does not inadvertently perpetuate division.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                          The first passage promotes the idea of seeing political opponents as fellow citizens, while the second reinforces a divisive narrative, suggesting an unbridgeable gap.
                          Conclusion


                          To truly embody the principles advocated in the "Not your enemy" post, the poster could benefit from maintaining a consistent tone of respect and openness, even while critiquing harmful political behavior. This approach would better align with the call for unity and respectful discourse, ensuring that the important critique of misinformation and harmful ideologies does not inadvertently perpetuate division.

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                            To truly embody the principles advocated in the "Not your enemy" post, the poster could benefit from maintaining a consistent tone of respect and openness, even while critiquing harmful political behavior. This approach would better align with the call for unity and respectful discourse, ensuring that the important critique of misinformation and harmful ideologies does not inadvertently perpetuate division.
                            carpe has never been the most consistent person. I honestly believe it is born out of his embrace of relative morality, where what is right or wrong depends entirely on how he feels about it at any given moment. It's classic Orwellian double-think, where he can simultaneously accept contradictory ideas without experiencing even a second of cognitive dissonance.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Kinda like -a grown man can pretend all he wants that he is actually a cute cuddly female feline, but I should not be compelled to be complicit in his delusion.
                              How does it impact you if someone else expresses that their external sexual expression is not aligned with their internal sense of gender? How are you harmed by this? Would you deny this person the liberty to take whatever course they choose to rectify the misalignment?
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment

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