A Call to Trumpers/MAGA/Conservatives

[carpedm9587]

First he says:

Then he says:

Way to practice what you preach, buddy!

Like many liberals, you're just another hypocritical phony who demands respect and charity from others while showing none yourself.

If you cherry-pick from posts, you can almost always create a contradiction. I suggest you include the entirety of the post. You might want to focus on the part where I distinguished between general observations about the MAGA base as a group - and how I approach individuals.

There is no contradiction here. I can likewise make the observation that members of the Democratic party have a tendency to create policies prone to creating dependencies, without assuming that any given Democrat is doing that at any given time.

[Mountain Man]

If you cherry-pick from posts, you can almost always create a contradiction. I suggest you include the entirety of the post. You might want to focus on the part where I distinguished between general observations about the MAGA base as a group - and how I approach individuals.

There is no contradiction here. I can likewise make the observation that members of the Democratic party have a tendency to create policies prone to creating dependencies, without assuming that any given Democrat is doing that at any given time.

If you were at all consistent, then I wouldn't be able to "cherry pick" such direct and blatant contradictions. This is very definitely a you problem.

[carpedm9587]

Was an enormous part of Obama's support because of a cult of personality?

In Obama's core base - absolutely. I found the cult part just as concerning. The only difference is the object of the cult. Obama had a cult-of-personality following, but I had few questions in my mind about his caliber as a person. So, while I think any cult is a problem, I was not worried that he would use that cult to his personal advantage. With Trump, I am concerned about BOTH the cult of personality issue and the impact of that given the caliber of the person at the head of that cult. There is no question in my mind that Trump will use his cult to his personal advantage.

I know dozens and dozens of Trump supporters, and they don't strike me as cultists - at all. How many Trump supporters do you personally know?

Seer, people in a cult seldom see that they ARE in a cult. They will fight tooth and nail to resist that label.

As for how many Trumper's I know, quite a few actually. My sister. her husband. My neighbor. His wife. Several of my former business partners. Several cousins. About half of the local church group I work with. I could go on. I would say I probably personally know over 100 Trump supporters.

[carpedm9587]

If you were at all consistent, then I wouldn't be able to "cherry pick" such direct and blatant contradictions. This is very definitely a you problem.

Ummm... no. That is why cherry picking is so ridiculous. Extracting this word, sentence or paragraph from its context can even reverse its meaning.

Context, MM. Context is quite important.

[seer]

In Obama's core base - absolutely. I found the cult part just as concerning. The only difference is the object of the cult. Obama had a cult-of-personality following, but I had few questions in my mind about his caliber as a person. So, while I think any cult is a problem, I was not worried that he would use that cult to his personal advantage. With Trump, I am concerned about BOTH the cult of personality issue and the impact of that given the caliber of the person at the head of that cult. There is no question in my mind that Trump will use his cult to his personal advantage.

Seem, that is where we differ, I had much more of a problem with Obama's policies.

Seer, people in a cult seldom see that they ARE in a cult. They will fight tooth and nail to resist that label.

Isn't that the very language of division that you were recently decrying!

As for how many Trumper's I know, quite a few actually. My sister. her husband. My neighbor. His wife. Several of my former business partners. Several cousins. About half of the local church group I work with. I could go on. I would say I probably personally know over 100 Trump supporters.

Did you recently say you didn't know any good people, and rational, who were Trump supporters?

[RumTumTugger]

Directly funded by Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors and the Pathnote Foundation (which also donates to the SPLC).

Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors also donated to the pro Hamas/Anti-Israel protests.

[Mountain Man]

Ummm... no. That is why cherry picking is so ridiculous. Extracting this word, sentence or paragraph from its context can even reverse its meaning.

Context, MM. Context is quite important.

Supposed "context" won't save you here. You call for civility and understanding and then turn right around and talk insultingly and disparagingly about anybody who doesn't share your opinion of President Trump. It is so blatantly hypocritical that it almost crosses the line into into parody.

[carpedm9587]

Seem, that is where we differ, I had much more of a problem with Obama's policies.

How can you disagree with something I didn't say? Can you point me to exactly where I said something about Obama's policies?

Isn't that the very language of division that you were recently decrying!

No. If you think so, please point out where you got that impression. Either I was not clear, or you misread.

Did you recently say you didn't know any good people, and rational, who were Trump supporters?

Despite the repeated claim to this effect, no. In fact, I have repeatedly and explicitly said pretty much the opposite. If you think otherwise, again, show me where I have said this.

[carpedm9587]

Supposed "context" won't save you here. You call for civility and understanding and then turn right around and talk insultingly and disparagingly about anybody who doesn't share your opinion of President Trump. It is so blatantly hypocritical that it almost crosses the line into into parody.

I am not experiencing a need to be "saved" from anything. Meanwhile, show me where, MM, I have said something disparaging about a person or to a person. I'll be happy to examine it. I don't believe I have done that anywhere. It is why you will see me pointing out an inconsistency in a post or between posts, but not accuse someone of hypocrisy. The former is a logical discussion about an argument being made. The latter impugns people's character and requires me to make assumptions about their intent, which I cannot know.

[seer]

How can you disagree with something I didn't say? Can you point me to exactly where I said something about Obama's policies?

My point is that you were more worried about Trump's caliber than Obama's. Would be and was much more concerned about Obama's policies.

No. If you think so, please point out where you got that impression. Either I was not clear, or you misread.

So accusing large portions of Trump voters of being cultists isn't divisive language?

Despite the repeated claim to this effect, no. In fact, I have repeatedly and explicitly said pretty much the opposite. If you think otherwise, again, show me where I have said this.

No, you said that you had yet to find one person you considered to be good to have rational reasons for supporting Trump. Are you denying this?

[seer]

As for how many Trumper's I know, quite a few actually. My sister. her husband. My neighbor. His wife. Several of my former business partners. Several cousins. About half of the local church group I work with. I could go on. I would say I probably personally know over 100 Trump supporters.

You said:

I would dearly love to find one good person who insists on supporting Mr. Trump who can explain to me how they can justify that position. Every single conversation I have attempted to have, in any venue, with any Trump supporter, dries up and ends as soon as I ask a question or ask for evidence that supports one claim or another. All I've gotten, for years now, is one meme after another.

Somewhere out there, I have to believe, is a thoughtful, reasoning Trump supporter. I wish I could find them.

So out of all those Trump supporters you know you can not find one good and reasoning Trump supporter. I guess they are all irrational cultists...

[Cerebrum123]

Why do you think this?

And what makes you think I am "far left?"

The fact you have gone on record as being okay with bestiality and your support of concepts like Gender Identity.

[seer]

The fact you have gone on record as being okay with bestiality and your support of concepts like Gender Identity.

err, that pretty much settles it...

[carpedm9587]

My point is that you were more worried about Trump's caliber than Obama's. Would be and was much more concerned about Obama's policies.

I said nothing about policies. I was speaking about personal characteristics and the likelihood that the person with them would use the cult of personality for personal gain. I have never had a concern about that with Obama, though I don't like ANY cult of personality. I definitely have it with Trump.

Policies are a separate issue. Every president brings new policies into play, and 4 or 8 years later the next president makes adjustments or tosses them out wholesale. The country goes on. But a despot in the highest office in the land is an existential threat.

So accusing large portions of Trump voters of being cultists isn't divisive language?

Divisive? Perhaps. I am not sure how to go about warning people about the dangers of a cult of personality without using the words, and some people will feel they are divisive. But divisiveness was my other thread. This one is about the assumption that people who disagree with you are "enemies" and the country needs to be "taken back." At the end of the day, it is inconsistent for someone to claim they love America while they actively hate Americans.

No, you said that you had yet to find one person you considered to be good to have rational reasons for supporting Trump. Are you denying this?

What I said, I believe, was that no one has yet articulated a rational, reasoned explanation for supporting Trump, and rationally/reasonably engaged in a dialogue about it. The usual pattern is that I ask why, I get a list of reasons, but as I begin to ask questions about that list and probe its basis - they disappear, usually after lobbing a few ad homs. If it's in the context of a chat group, I get blocked. So far, it is pretty much every single time. My sister is the sole exception so far, but our political conversations are rare.

I have yet to find a single Trump supporter who has engaged in a dialogue about their beliefs and their rationale.

Example: Someone stated to me that they felt the NY trial was a political hit job. I asked if they had followed the trial at all. The response: "I'm not going to waste my time on that stuff. It's all a witch hunt. I'm waiting for someone to show me the evidence. They have no evidence!"

And odd statement from someone who refuses to follow the trial where the evidence is being presented. And that was the end of the discussion. My next question was ignored and I was blocked. That is a pretty typical exchange.

[carpedm9587]

You said:

So out of all those Trump supporters you know you can not find one good and reasoning Trump supporter. I guess they are all irrational cultists...

I think you should read what I wrote again. Your conclusion cannot be derived from my statement.

What you have done here is similar to this:

Statement: I wish I could find one, comfortable, affordable, blue car.
Response: So, you believe every blue car out there is uncomfortable and too expensive?

Umm.... no.