BOMBSHELL: FBI Staged Fake Photo of Classified Documents for PR Purposes

[Sparko]

But, if I remember correctly, and I'm paraphrasing here, I thought they had already denied they did something like that 'way back when'. Now, IF they can show a "continuity of chain of evidence" record (which is what we used way back in my day) to show what was done and by whom, it's not as big a problem.

I don't know about that. But apparently (in the other thread) the judge found it suspicious enough to investigate further and suspend the trial. Whether it turns out to be something as innocent as the scanning company mixing up the document order, or as bad as someone tampering with the documents, I have no idea. I guess we will have to wait.

The defense is already at a disadvantage because the FBI redacted all classified documents before giving them to the defense. So basically all they have are a bunch of documents that are redacted out, or missing entirely because of security or privilege. And they can't show classified documents in the trial to jurors, so it's all having to go by what the government says is there.

[Cow Poke]

Well in cases where documents are evidence, they need to be reviewed to see what is incriminating or relevant and what is not. That means handling the documents, at least to scan them. Then the scanned docs are loaded into a database and filtered, sorted, reviewed and tagged. That is actually what I do at the law firm I work at.

This....

Regarding the so-called “cover sheets” that the prosecution team used as replacements for allegedly classified documents in the boxes, the Special Counsel’s Office wrote that the FBI “generally” had “replaced the handwritten sheets with classified cover sheets annotated with the index code.” But the Office did not explain why they could not offer a precise, categorical representation about the process that was used instead of a “general” one. The Office also admitted that in “many but not all instances, the FBI was able to determine which document with classification markings corresponded to a particular placeholder sheet.” This further suggests that even if the scans are the “best evidence available,” they are not a reliable record of the boxes’ contents. The “not all” caveat is, however, consistent with the recent and inexplicable disclosure that the “filter team” was “not focused” on the order of documents in the boxes that are at the heart of this case.

If that's true, it's certainly a chain of custody problem. Again, in a case that you know is going to be extremely high profile, it is absolutely imperative to follow best practices and document them accordingly.

(but you know that)

[Cow Poke]

I don't know about that. But apparently (in the other thread) the judge found it suspicious enough to investigate further and suspend the trial. Whether it turns out to be something as innocent as the scanning company mixing up the document order, or as bad as someone tampering with the documents, I have no idea. I guess we will have to wait.

The defense is already at a disadvantage because the FBI redacted all classified documents before giving them to the defense. So basically all they have are a bunch of documents that are redacted out, or missing entirely because of security or privilege. And they can't show classified documents in the trial to jurors, so it's all having to go by what the government says is there.

I trust the government - they're here to help you!

[JimL]

as long as it is pushed back until after the election...

Why would you want the trial put off until after the election which means there will be no trial at all?

[Cow Poke]

...That is actually what I do at the law firm I work at.

You'll appreciate this... (may have posted it elsewhere)

We had a guy who was arrested for the rape and murder of a 9 year old girl.
I, along with a detective, took him out to the woods where he buried the body, and he took us right to the spot.
It was, indeed, the deceased.

It was about as ironclad case as you could find with tons of evidence and numerous witnesses.

HOWEVER, during one of the interviews at the county jail, a sheriff's deputy offered the accused a glass of wine to "steady his nerves".

ON THAT FACT ALONE, the judge threw out the case, and this pedophile/murderer was set free.

I have seen too many times where "small mistakes" or errors destroyed a prosecution.

[Cow Poke]

Why would you want the trial put off until after the election which means there will be no trial at all?

OK

[Sparko]

You'll appreciate this... (may have posted it elsewhere)

We had a guy who was arrested for the rape and murder of a 9 year old girl.
I, along with a detective, took him out to the woods where he buried the body, and he took us right to the spot.
It was, indeed, the deceased.

It was about as ironclad case as you could find with tons of evidence and numerous witnesses.

HOWEVER, during one of the interviews at the county jail, a sheriff's deputy offered the accused a glass of wine to "steady his nerves".

ON THAT FACT ALONE, the judge threw out the case, and this pedophile/murderer was set free.

I have seen too many times where "small mistakes" or errors destroyed a prosecution.

I thought stuff like that only happened on shows like "Law & Order" - where they always toss out evidence based on some cockamamie excuse to increase the drama.

[Sparko]

Why would you want the trial put off until after the election which means there will be no trial at all?

So you admit that they only reason they are prosecuting Trump is to try to influence the election and once the election is over there will be no need to do that? Unless Trump wins of course.

[Sam]

Remember, I was a cop when I was a baby, nearly 100 years ago, so I'm not nearly the expert on evidence (and how it is scanned and processed today) that Sam is.

Sparko is saying something extremely similar to what I've been explaining so I'm not sure why you invoking me here is doing you any favors. He's wrong that this is the reason Judge Cannon provided for delaying the trial date but we're both saying that out-of-order documentation is not, as has been suggested here, a necessary problem for the prosecution, much less a fatal one. That the government cannot match all classified documents with the handwritten placeholder sheets that were used after the investigative team ran out of official sheets is a problem for those documents. But it's not a chain of custody problem and, given that the ordering of the documents is not an important aspect of the prosecution's case (that we know of), there isn't cause for a dismissal.

To reiterate from the other thread:

Source: Case 9:23-cr-80101-AMC Document 522 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/03/2024. pp. 7-8

3. Preservation of Which Boxes Contained Documents With Classification Markings

The Government has taken steps to ensure that documents and placeholders remained within the same box as when they were seized, i.e., to prevent any movement of documents from one box to another. The FBI was present when an outside vendor scanned the documents in connection with the now-closed civil case (see, e.g., Trump v. United States, Case No. 22-81294- CIV-CANNON, ECF No. 91 at 2 (requiring the Government to inventory the property seized from Mar-a-Lago); id. at ECF No. 125 at 3 (requiring the Government to “make available to Plaintiff and the Special Master copies of all Seized Materials” in electronic format by October 13, 2022)), and the boxes were kept separate during that process. When the FBI created the inventories, each inventory team worked on a single box at a time, separated from other teams. And during defense counsel’s review, any boxes open at the same time (and any personnel reviewing those boxes) were kept separate from one another. In other words, there is a clear record of which boxes contained classified documents when seized, and this information has long been in the defense’s possession, as discussed infra at 9.

4. Location of Classified Documents Within Each Box

Since the boxes were seized and stored, appropriate personnel have had access to the boxes for several reasons, including to comply with orders issued by this Court in the civil proceedings noted above, for investigative purposes, and to facilitate the defendants’ review of the boxes. The inventories and scans created during the civil proceedings were later produced in discovery in this criminal case. Because these inventories and scans were created close in time to the seizure of the documents, they are the best evidence available of the order the documents were in when seized. That said, there are some boxes where the order of items within that box is not the same as in the associated scans.3 There are several possible explanations, including the above-described instances in which the boxes were accessed, as well as the size and shape of certain items in the boxes possibly leading to movement of items. For example, the boxes contain items smaller than standard paper such as index cards, books, and stationary, which shift easily when the boxes are carried, especially because many of the boxes are not full. Regardless of the explanation, as discussed below, where precisely within a box a classified document was stored at Mar-a-Lago does not bear in any way on Nauta’s ability to file a CIPA Section 5 notice.

© Copyright Original Source

-Sam

[JimL]

So you admit that they only reason they are prosecuting Trump is to try to influence the election and once the election is over there will be no need to do that? Unless Trump wins of course.

No, the trial being before the election is to inform the electorate whether they are voting for a criminal who stole classified documents, had his minions hide those documents, lied to and obstructed the FBI's attempt to retrieve them and also knowingly shared (recorded on tape) classified secrets with others.
There are those here of course who would still vote for him, as we know he tried to overthrow an election and they would still vote for the treasonous ex-president, but there are those supporters of his who still care about truth and people should know for certain whether he's guilty or not before casting their vote. I understand that doesn't apply to the CP's, MM's Ronson's, seer's and many others here, but not all republicans have lost their minds completely.

[Cow Poke]

I thought stuff like that only happened on shows like "Law & Order" - where they always toss out evidence based on some cockamamie excuse to increase the drama.

Nope, I have several very ... um... amazingly disappointing examples of where chain of custody or some other "otherwise trivial" incident, omission, fact or gap in chain of custody saw a case entirely thrown out.

That rape/murder was the most outrageous.

I'm sure you would not be surprised to learn that this guy was arrested again, another rape - SUSPECTED of murder but we never found the body - and he was prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but with absolute care and precision in every step of the investigation and prosecution.

Oh, and that judge "retired" shortly after tossing the case out due to public outcry to spend more time with his family.

[Cow Poke]

No, the trial being before the election is to inform the electorate whether they are voting for a criminal who stole classified documents,

He STOLE them!

had his minions hide those documents, lied to and obstructed the FBI's attempt to retrieve them and also knowingly shared (recorded on tape) classified secrets with others.
There are those here of course who would still vote for him, as we know he tried to overthrow an election and they would still vote for the treasonous ex-president, but there are those supporters of his who still care about truth and people should know for certain whether he's guilty or not before casting their vote. I understand that doesn't apply to the CP's, MM's Ronson's, seer's and many others here, but not all republicans have lost their minds completely.

A) I'm not a Republican
2) Jim, if you want to actually engage the thread topic, you can stay, but take your psychotic and delusional TDS crap elsewhere.

[rogue06]

Two quick questions

HOWEVER, during one of the interviews at the county jail, a sheriff's deputy offered the accused a glass of wine to "steady his nerves".

ON THAT FACT ALONE, the judge threw out the case, and this pedophile/murderer was set free.

I have seen too many times where "small mistakes" or errors destroyed a prosecution.

Was his lawyer present when he was offered the wine?

Oh, and that judge "retired" shortly after tossing the case out due to public outcry to spend more time with his family.

Was his position an elected one, by which I mean, was he up for reelection?

[Mountain Man]

Sparko is saying something extremely similar to what I've been explaining so I'm not sure why you invoking me here is doing you any favors. He's wrong that this is the reason Judge Cannon provided for delaying the trial date but we're both saying that out-of-order documentation is not, as has been suggested here, a necessary problem for the prosecution, much less a fatal one. That the government cannot match all classified documents with the handwritten placeholder sheets that were used after the investigative team ran out of official sheets is a problem for those documents. But it's not a chain of custody problem and, given that the ordering of the documents is not an important aspect of the prosecution's case (that we know of), there isn't cause for a dismissal.

To reiterate from the other thread:

Source: Case 9:23-cr-80101-AMC Document 522 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/03/2024. pp. 7-8

3. Preservation of Which Boxes Contained Documents With Classification Markings

The Government has taken steps to ensure that documents and placeholders remained within the same box as when they were seized, i.e., to prevent any movement of documents from one box to another. The FBI was present when an outside vendor scanned the documents in connection with the now-closed civil case (see, e.g., Trump v. United States, Case No. 22-81294- CIV-CANNON, ECF No. 91 at 2 (requiring the Government to inventory the property seized from Mar-a-Lago); id. at ECF No. 125 at 3 (requiring the Government to “make available to Plaintiff and the Special Master copies of all Seized Materials” in electronic format by October 13, 2022)), and the boxes were kept separate during that process. When the FBI created the inventories, each inventory team worked on a single box at a time, separated from other teams. And during defense counsel’s review, any boxes open at the same time (and any personnel reviewing those boxes) were kept separate from one another. In other words, there is a clear record of which boxes contained classified documents when seized, and this information has long been in the defense’s possession, as discussed infra at 9.

4. Location of Classified Documents Within Each Box

Since the boxes were seized and stored, appropriate personnel have had access to the boxes for several reasons, including to comply with orders issued by this Court in the civil proceedings noted above, for investigative purposes, and to facilitate the defendants’ review of the boxes. The inventories and scans created during the civil proceedings were later produced in discovery in this criminal case. Because these inventories and scans were created close in time to the seizure of the documents, they are the best evidence available of the order the documents were in when seized. That said, there are some boxes where the order of items within that box is not the same as in the associated scans.3 There are several possible explanations, including the above-described instances in which the boxes were accessed, as well as the size and shape of certain items in the boxes possibly leading to movement of items. For example, the boxes contain items smaller than standard paper such as index cards, books, and stationary, which shift easily when the boxes are carried, especially because many of the boxes are not full. Regardless of the explanation, as discussed below, where precisely within a box a classified document was stored at Mar-a-Lago does not bear in any way on Nauta’s ability to file a CIPA Section 5 notice.

© Copyright Original Source

-Sam

Right, the same FBI that has since confessed to planting evidence at the scene and tampering with and even losing documents after the fact, is now going to pinky swear that everything else they did was and good and proper.

Go on, tell us another one.

The fact is, the prosecution's case is in such shambles that Judge Cannon put a stop to the nonsense and said, "I'm gonna want to see your work."

[Cow Poke]

Two quick questions

Was his lawyer present when he was offered the wine?

Negatory, which was an incredible screw-up of the sheriff's deputy.
His rationale was "well, he didn't ASK for his lawyer to be there", but - again - in a crucial case like that....

Was his position an elected one, by which I mean, was he up for reelection?

Yes, but he had just recently been elected, so I think he still had 3.5 years remaining.
(Long time ago, can't remember exactly)