Kevin O’ Leary Advocates Billionaire Anarchy

[CivilDiscourse]

Consistency would be lauding contestants with good business sense, not correcting them for trying to defraud him.

Only in your cartoon charicature. He says it's part of the haggling and negotiating with investors and banks. On the show he's acting as the investor, so of course he's going to be very skeptical of self evaluations... Which is exactly in line with what he says about how banks and investors act...

[NorrinRadd]

If it continues, NY City will become like Detroit.

[whag]

Only in your cartoon charicature. He says it's part of the haggling and negotiating with investors and banks. On the show he's acting as the investor, so of course he's going to be very skeptical of self evaluations... Which is exactly in line with what he says about how banks and investors act...

No need to caricature a game show. If banks rebuke property owners for blatantly overvaluating their property by 80%, that would make sense. Are you saying that’s what happens, or is no rebuke issued to the flagrant overvaluater for inflating their property value flagrantly?

Then I wanna move onto undervaluation for tax purposes, unless you think he was wrong there.

[rogue06]

Thanks for admitting capitalism requires deep circumvention of the law to thrive. That’s what we lefties have been saying all along.

Actually, that there was no violation of any laws until they decided they needed something to go after OMB with and then suddenly what he did became illegal. But, in spite of assurances from Democrat party officials, if it suddenly became illegal when OMB did it then it also became illegal for all investors and developers and that is why they are leaving and seeking other places to invest and why Democrats in the state are starting to panic.

[rogue06]

Not deception. Delusion mostly. Or way too much optimism in future profit (which doesn't count when valuating a company now). The point is, nobody is breaking any laws or committing any fraud. It is just negotiating and haggling.

And Deutsch Bank wanted OMB as a customer -- someone they referred to as a "whale" (and not because he is overweight).

[rogue06]

No need to caricature a game show. If banks rebuke property owners for blatantly overvaluating their property by 80%, that would make sense. Are you saying that’s what happens, or is no rebuke issued to the flagrant overvaluater for inflating their property value flagrantly?

Then I wanna move onto undervaluation for tax purposes, unless you think he was wrong there.

If Trump overvalued his property (which it is then up to the bank to agree or disagree), the judge grossly undervalued it so that nearby empty lots were literally deemed more valuable.

[Sparko]

Where's the correction? He literally doesn't answer her question:

But on the second point, wouldn’t there be many companies who would not want to do business or loan money to people like yourself or investors if they know that they can get away with fraud and there’s no recourse to protect them?

O’Leary: Excuse me. What fraud? This is not about Trump anymore. When you get a developer that builds a building and he says it’s worth $400 million, and he wants to borrow 200 million from a bank, which happens every day everywhere on Earth, including every American city, every developer is an entrepreneur. They shine the light on their building and they say it’s worth 400. The bank does its own due diligence, as was done in this case, because they’re very good at it, the banks are very good, and they say, no, it’s worth 300. We’re only going to loan you 150 million. That haggling has gone on for decades. That’s how it works

Instead, he demonstrates he doesn't know the facts of the case:

tto_release_properties_addendum_-_final.pdf (ny.gov)

Here's a random one:

Seven Springs, Westchester County, NY Mr. Trump purchased this 212-acre estate in 1995 for $7.5 million. His son, Eric Trump, took the lead on issues related to the property and even lived there for a time. The property was valued at up to $291 million in the statements from 2011 to 2021 based on the contention that the property was zoned for nine mansions and that the Trump Organization had approvals to develop seven mansions that would net a $161 million profit. However, these values were a fiction, totally unsupported by the development history of the property and contradicted by every professional valuation done on the property. The valuation of the mansions also conflicted with limits imposed by the Town of New Bedford on how the property could be developed. Furthermore, while using the supposed future mansions as part of the value, Eric Trump was simultaneously working to complete a conservation easement donation to receive a federal tax deduction for giving up certain development rights. This easement donation was a recognition that the Trump Organization would never be able to develop the property for anything close to a $161 million profit.

In 2016, the Trump Organization received an appraisal valuing the property at $56.5 million. The subsequent statement was changed to disguise what would have appeared as an 80% drop in value for Seven Springs by moving the property into an “other assets” bucket without being itemized and lumping its value together with Mr. Trump’s triplex apartment, which had significantly jumped in value.

We know O'Leary hasn't read the case because he would have used an example of 80 percent overvaluation. The estimate field isn't there to negotiate the difference between $291M and $8M.

O'Leary was responding to the show's bullet list that you posted in the OP. You claimed he was saying every business "commits fraud" - but that is not what he was saying. He was saying that every business will puff up their valuation and that it's not fraud. That is just how negotiations go. He was not saying every business commits fraud. He was talking about the process, not Trump.

Excuse me. What fraud? This is not about Trump anymore. When you get a developer that builds a building and he says it’s worth $400 million, and he wants to borrow 200 million from a bank, which happens every day everywhere on Earth, including every American city, every developer is an entrepreneur. They shine the light on their building and they say it’s worth 400. The bank does its own due diligence, as was done in this case, because they’re very good at it, the banks are very good, and they say, no, it’s worth 300. We’re only going to loan you 150 million. That haggling has gone on for decades. That’s how it works

[Mountain Man]

Consistency would be lauding contestants with good business sense, not correcting them for trying to defraud him.

Do you have any clips from Shark Tank of O'Leary accusing a contestant of attempting to defraud the sharks by overestimating the value of their business?

[Stoic]

O'Leary was responding to the show's bullet list that you posted in the OP. You claimed he was saying every business "commits fraud" - but that is not what he was saying.

I'm sure that's not what he intended to say, but when he said “Everything you listed is done by every real estate developer, everywhere on earth, in every city,” fraud was one of the things listed.

He was saying that every business will puff up their valuation and that it's not fraud. That is just how negotiations go. He was not saying every business commits fraud. He was talking about the process, not Trump.

Again, he clearly doesn't know what Trump did.

If all Trump did was say "My property is worth 2X dollars" when it was actually worth X dollars, that would not have been fraud.

But when he says, "I hired a professional appraiser, who found that my property is worth 2X dollars" when he either did not hire an appraiser, or the appraiser found that his property was worth X dollars, or he gave false information about the property to the appraiser in order to make it appear that the property was worth more than it was, that's fraud.

[Mountain Man]

I'm sure that's not what he intended to say, but when he said “Everything you listed is done by every real estate developer, everywhere on earth, in every city,” fraud was one of the things listed.


Again, he clearly doesn't know what Trump did.

If all Trump did was say "My property is worth 2X dollars" when it was actually worth X dollars, that would not have been fraud.

But when he says, "I hired a professional appraiser, who found that my property is worth 2X dollars" when he either did not hire an appraiser, or the appraiser found that his property was worth X dollars, or he gave false information about the property to the appraiser in order to make it appear that the property was worth more than it was, that's fraud.

There's no evidence that the President did any of those things.

[whag]

There's no evidence that the President did any of those things.

The official evidence is here and described in detail:

https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/file...um_-_final.pdf

Tell me when you’ve read it so we can continue the discussion.

[whag]

O'Leary was responding to the show's bullet list that you posted in the OP. You claimed he was saying every business "commits fraud" - but that is not what he was saying. He was saying that every business will puff up their valuation and that it's not fraud. That is just how negotiations go. He was not saying every business commits fraud. He was talking about the process, not Trump.

Excuse me. What fraud? This is not about Trump anymore. When you get a developer that builds a building and he says it’s worth $400 million, and he wants to borrow 200 million from a bank, which happens every day everywhere on Earth, including every American city, every developer is an entrepreneur. They shine the light on their building and they say it’s worth 400. The bank does its own due diligence, as was done in this case, because they’re very good at it, the banks are very good, and they say, no, it’s worth 300. We’re only going to loan you 150 million. That haggling has gone on for decades. That’s how it works

“Everything you listed is done by every real estate developer, everywhere on earth, in every city.”

[Sam]

O'Leary was responding to the show's bullet list that you posted in the OP. You claimed he was saying every business "commits fraud" - but that is not what he was saying. He was saying that every business will puff up their valuation and that it's not fraud. That is just how negotiations go. He was not saying every business commits fraud. He was talking about the process, not Trump.

Excuse me. What fraud? This is not about Trump anymore. When you get a developer that builds a building and he says it’s worth $400 million, and he wants to borrow 200 million from a bank, which happens every day everywhere on Earth, including every American city, every developer is an entrepreneur. They shine the light on their building and they say it’s worth 400. The bank does its own due diligence, as was done in this case, because they’re very good at it, the banks are very good, and they say, no, it’s worth 300. We’re only going to loan you 150 million. That haggling has gone on for decades. That’s how it works

There's no evidence that the President did any of those things.

<checks the list>

• Falsification of business records in the 2nd degree
• Issuing false financial statements
• Insurance fraud
• Conspiracy

<taps the sign>

Source: Ibid.

Donald Trump was aware of many of the key facts underpinning various material fraudulent misstatements in the SFCs: he was aware of having deeded away the right to use Mar-a-Lago as anything other than a social club, and notwithstanding, continued to value it as if it could be used as a single family residence; he was aware that the Triplex apartment in which he, a real estate mogul and self-identified expert, resided for decades was not 30,000 square feet, but actually 10,996 square feet; he was aware that he did not control the Vornado partnership interest even though he represented it as “cash”; he was aware that he had permission to build only 500 private residences in Aberdeen, notwithstanding that he represented that he had permission for 2500; and he was aware that 40 Wall Street was operating at a deficit despite proclaiming that it was running a net operating income of $64 million. As Eric Trump testified, Donald Trump sat at the top of the pyramid of the Trump Organization until 2017. Donald Trump professed to “know more about real estate than other people” and to be “more expert than anybody else.” TT 3487. He repeatedly falsified business records with the intent to defraud. See People v Gordon, 23 NY3d 643, 650 (2014) (“Intent may be established by the defendant’s conduct and the circumstances”); People v Rodriguez, 17 NY3d 486, 489 (“Because intent is an ‘invisible operation of the mind’ direct evidence is rarely available (in the absence of an admission) and it is unnecessary when there is legally sufficient circumstantial evidence of intent,” “noting that ‘intent can also be ‘inferred from the defendant’s conduct and the surrounding circumstances’”) (internal citations omitted).

There is overwhelming evidence that Allen Weissberg intentionally falsified hundreds of business records during his tenure as CEO of the Trump Organization. Weisselberg understood that his assignment from Donald Trump was to have his reported assets increase every year irrespective of their actual values. The examples of Weisselberg’s intent to falsify business records are too numerous to itemize, but include, and are not limited to: concealing the square footage of the Triplex to inflate its value by $200 million; misrepresenting to insurance representatives that the real estate valuations found in the SFCs were prepared by outside appraisers; directing Donna Kidder to prepare a budget for 40 Wall Street that showed a positive net operating income, notwithstanding that 40 Wall Street was running repeated deficits; valuing the Vornado partnership interest as cash, despite knowing that Donald Trump had no control over it; directing Birney to remove management fees as expenses when calculating net operating income; and certifying to banks and other third parties that all of the valuations in the SFCs were GAAP compliant and presented at fair and accurate estimated current values, which they were not.

There is ample evidence that Jeffrey McConney intentionally falsified business records. Not only was McConney responsible for the preparation of the valuations contained in the SFCs from 2014 through 2017, he also continued to overvalue certain properties from 2017 until he left the Trump Organization. In particular, examples of McConney’s fraudulent conduct include, but are not limited to: knowingly and intentionally valuing the apartments at Trump Park Avenue based on an offering price that failed to reflect that the apartments were rent-restricted; intentionally including the Vornado partnership interest as cash despite knowing Donald Trump did not control it; failing to discount to present value; valuing undeveloped properties as if they were already built and ready to be sold; intentionally lying to Donald Bender and representing that the Trump Organization had no appraisals of their real property in its possession, when it did; intentionally and knowingly valuing Mar-a-Lago as if it could be sold as a single family residence despite the deed restrictions that require it to be a social club in perpetuity.Both Trump, Jr. and Eric Trump also continued to represent Donald Trump’s Vornado limited partnership interest as cash, despite having been expressly advised that it was not under the Trump Organization’s control.

Additionally, Eric Trump intentionally provided McConney with knowingly false and inflated valuations for Seven Springs, despite having commissioned appraisals that valued Seven Springs at a fraction of Eric Trump’s number.

Moreover, Trump, Jr., as a trustee of the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, signed Management Representation Letters to Mazars affirming the accuracy of the supporting data and signed certifications to banks and insurance companies verifying the accuracy of the false SFCs’ contents.

Accordingly, the law presumes that Donald Trump, Jr. read and understood the contents of his representations. Marine Midland Bank, N.A. v Embassy E., Inc., 160 AD2d 420, 422 (1st Dept 1990) (“It is no defense that respondents did not read the note or the guarantees, for the law presumes that one who is capable of reading has read the document which he has executed and he is conclusively bound by the terms contained therein”) (internal citations omitted). Trump, Jr.’s intent can also be inferred from his acknowledgment that third parties would rely on his certifications.

© Copyright Original Source

-Sam

[Sparko]

I'm sure that's not what he intended to say, but when he said “Everything you listed is done by every real estate developer, everywhere on earth, in every city,” fraud was one of the things listed.


Again, he clearly doesn't know what Trump did.

If all Trump did was say "My property is worth 2X dollars" when it was actually worth X dollars, that would not have been fraud.

But when he says, "I hired a professional appraiser, who found that my property is worth 2X dollars" when he either did not hire an appraiser, or the appraiser found that his property was worth X dollars, or he gave false information about the property to the appraiser in order to make it appear that the property was worth more than it was, that's fraud.

Did he do that? If he got an appraiser that said his property was worth 2X, then submitted that to the bank, that is not fraud. That is the professional opinion of the appraiser. If Trump lied about the appraisal, how would that work? He would have to submit the actual document to the bank. They could and would check with the appraiser. If he just said "My property is worth 2X" without getting an appraisal, then that is not fraud, that is just his opinion.

[rogue06]

Did he do that? If he got an appraiser that said his property was worth 2X, then submitted that to the bank, that is not fraud. That is the professional opinion of the appraiser. If Trump lied about the appraisal, how would that work? He would have to submit the actual document to the bank. They could and would check with the appraiser. If he just said "My property is worth 2X" without getting an appraisal, then that is not fraud, that is just his opinion.

Part of it is that there are a number of variables that really cannot be determined with any sort of accuracy. Perhaps the biggest would be what is called the celebrity factor. If someone famous once lived there the price of a home can easily double or more.

With OMB's ego I could see him believing that because it was he himself who lived there that should be worth at least a factor of five.